Subjects

Cotton Apprentices
Cressbrook Mill apprentices
Genealogy
Korean War
Normal school register
Nuclear technology
Park School WWI troop
Obesity of military children in the 19th Century
RHMS
RMA
SS Pemberton

Dear Sir or Madam, Having transcribed the admissions ledger of the RMA (1803-1880), Chelsea, I am adding data from the apprentices ledger. Many students, male and female, were apprenticed in the Chelsea, Pimlico and Westminster area. The trades covered included servants, shoemakers, cordwainers, boot closes, tailors, joiners etc. The names and addresses of the masters to whom the children were apprenticed are also registered. Is there in your collection a map of Chelsea for the period 1803-1880 available? It would be most interesting to see plot the spread of the RMA influence on the ever growing labour market of the early 19th century. Your help in this matter would be appreciated. Thank you.

Peter Goble

27 May 2005

Mr. Goble, With reference to your e-mail enquiry of 25 May. According to an article about the district of Heyside by John Stafford in the Oldham Chronicle newspaper of 2 June 1934, Jonathon Buckley of Throstle's Nest, Bullcote, Heyside, was committed to Lancaster Assizes in 1830 and sentenced to two years imprisonment for the ill-treatment of his apprentices.

The Oldham Chronicle first appeared in 1854.  Before that date, Oldham news was reported in the 'Manchester Guardian,' which is held at Manchester Archives & Local Studies, Manchester Central Library, St Peter's Square, Manchester M2 5PD (archives@libraries.manchester.gov.uk).

I have photocopied a section of the 6" to the mile 1844 / 48 Ordnance Survey map showing Heyside. If you supply a postal address, I will send a copy of the map and also photocopies of other information about the area. I have been unable to discover figures for the population of Heyside in 1841. In the 1840's it was a small village on the road between Oldham and Royton, Royton Local History Society may be able to assist you further.  The Secretary's name is Doug Ashmore (Tel. 0161 652 3050).

Jennifer Clark - Local Studies Assistant

27 May 2005

Jenifer, Thank you for the speedy response, and the offer of a map of the Heyside area. [Address supplied.] The apprentices from the RMA, Chelsea, were sent to various locations in the Manchester-Derby area. As soon as I have analyzed the ledger I will forward details of those apprentices sent to  your area. The added note re the report of Jonathan Buckley and a possible source of a News Paper report is terrific news, we may strike lucky.

Thanks for your help

Peter Goble 

Art; At last I have finished the work. Please look at www.cressbrook.com/citydesk. As you will see, I have started on my 'Thank yous' and so want to know what you would like. Lee says we can do a link if you would like. The reference to 'city desk' is because we have used their free software. I have ordered from Derbyshire the report on the mill at Edale, which also used your (RMA) children.

I wrote to Peter asking if he would like it (a copy of the report) as you were away but did not hear back. I think he gets so much Spam messages get lost. I am enjoying your book; you capture the atmosphere.
Jean

11 May 2005

Jean; Thanks! I've checked the Cressbrook site and am impressed; it makes interesting reading. I should like to offer a couple of corrections to the paragraph introducing the child apprentices of the Royal Military Asylum (1803-1892). The name of the institution was changed to the Duke of York's Royal Military School in 1892, so it might confuse readers to write of the Duke of York's school as being 'of the Royal Military Asylum'. They were one and the same institution, which underwent a name change. Might I suggest that you make a clear distinction between the two? Secondly, the RMA (as it was in the beginning) was founded to care for, and educate, the children of soldiers, not sailors. The Royal Navy had its own institution for the children of the lower ranks long before the RMA came into existence.

I should appreciate credit given me to be linked to Peter; perhaps something after the fashion of "Thanks to A. W. Cockerill and Peter Goble who research the history of the military schools: the Royal Hibernian Military School and the RMA later renamed, as earlier noted, the Duke of York's Royal Military School."

I should appreciate your making a link to our two sites, which deal with different aspects of the schools' histories. My web site is to be found at http://www.achart.ca/york/index.html and Peter's at http://www.rma-searcher.co.uk/ Peter's is a genealogical website of interest to those with military forebears who seek connections through the military schools. My site deals with the histories of the two schools for which I draw extensively on Peter's research. I'll link the Cressbrook Mill history at http://www.cressbrook.com/citydesk/ if you wish.

On the subject of research, Peter would appreciate a copy of the Edale Mill report. I would, too, but I'll get a copy from him. I forwarded your e-mail to him. You're right about the spam; this could explain why your message got lost. He has now solved the problem so communication shouldn't be a difficulty in future.

Art

11 May 2005

Art; As you know it's always difficult when you stray into the area of another's expertise. Re name of 'Duke of York's'. In the 'Dark satanic' boys version he refers to Duke of York's long before the dates you give,  i.e. circa 1818.

By the way, did you notice that the girl Caroline Fellows, mentioned in the girl's story you quoted, as being transferred from another Mill? The files from Derbyshire have not arrived from them yet because, I think, they're very big. Why? I shall never know as Westminster's a lot more manageable. I hope you do not mind, if for this reason, I send them to you as I think your server is more tolerant. I think Peter has not always received what I sent.

I have heard separately from Peter who has been down to Kew. Will let you know when I'm back from Spain in July! I will, with pleasure, put in your links but your offer to do the same had better wait until all the amendments have been made.

Jean

12 May 2005

Jean, You are correct. The RMA was known locally and among the children themselves as the Duke of York's school from the beginning. It was always referred to that way although its official title until 1892 was the Royal Military Asylum.

16 May 2005

Art, Sorry the scan is not yet with you but Derbyshire had trouble sending it. They said my server could not take it. They have put it in 5 slices on a disc, so tomorrow I'll send it to lee who will shrink it for you.

Re your comments re RMA/Duke of York's. Peter sent me ages ago a picture of the main facade of the RMA dated 1820 captioned ' The Duke of York's School, Chelsea' It is up on www.cressbrook.com/citydesk. Now you can see why I was [and still am] confused

Jean

16 May 2005

Jean, I poured over your website with interest; congratulations. The images of the RMA property, Chelsea, and of the children help make the site interesting. I read the report of the 'investigators' following the mill fire at wherever it was - I don't have the site open at the moment. I'm a little apprehensive about the 'goodness' of the report of how highly this or that master thought of this or that apprentice. I find this aspect of the report suspicious and wonder if it struck you the same way. I mean, when you compare this with the ghastly record of the Heyside journeymen cotton weavers with their apprentices you have to wonder.

Art

17 May 2005

Art, Agree with you that the Parish Supervisors really did not want to know the truth. They had hundreds of kids to get rid of! Off the record, when you get the complete History you will recognize that the 'Head in the Sand' philosophy still exists. Last Sunday they unveiled a recently reframed 'eulogy' signed by the 'workers' when Henry McConnel retired. around 1867.

I know that some of the oldies in the village, only some half a dozen remain, are not so impressed. Their g-grandparents were working at 11 at that time! Difficult for us to judge but I am very conscious of the people who lived in this cottage without water, bathrooms, electricity or central heating, but then no one had these things!

Jean

Hi, In the 1891 census I have found a Balaclava Marsh age in the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea. Is there any further information you can give me for my family history i.e. for what reason was he there? Where did he go on leaving? Were any addresses supplied? I would be grateful for anything you can supply. Thank you. 

Maureen Penn. 

18 May 2005

Maureen, Should you require a print of the pages, the service is available from the National Archives. The Ledger is delicate. The cost for scanning the two pages is £15 plus postage. WO143/80 Admissions DYRMS 1880-1918 page commencing REGT No 10117 and the name Geo YEARSLEY. Thank you for the correction, I now know he is Balaclava MARSH. Admit No 10125; on 30 Jan 1891, a protestant age 10 yrs & 1 month. Father Staff Sergeant Charles R, Army Service Corps. Deceased. Mother Sarah alive Discharged 22 December 1894. Delivered to his mother.

Write to the Bursar, Mr. R. Say, The Duke of York's School, Dover, KENT. Give the details I have added above and most importantly, your relationship. There may be some information re your relative still filed away. If you go to www.achart.ca you will find full details of the history of the RMA later the Duke of York's Royal Military School. Any images of Balaclava in the uniform of the RMA or copies of other RMA ephemera would be appreciated

Peter

22 May 2005

Thank you so much for a marvellous site. Searching for my great great grandfather, (John Jerram) just putting his name and date of birth in Google, brought me to the RMA entry for him and a brother, aged 5 and 9. Now you have set me off on another trail - his father's name is given, so presumably he too was in the army, and deceased... Your final note about "Jas." "Is this short for Jarvis, or James perhaps?" you have probably had many e-mails about by now - it is a normal abbreviation for James, here in the UK, as in Geo. for George, Hy. for Harry/Henry, Thos. for Thomas etc. I haven't a clue what to do about the information I've found, but I presume next stop is Kew! Thank you once more

Laura Dron

22 May 2005

Laura, Thanks for you message. If you are referring to John (your g-g-grandfather) and his older brother Robert (Jerram). they are indeed on the RMA register. Their father and mother - Private Charles Jerram of the Coldstream Guards and his wife Elizabeth – were still alive when the boys entered the RMA the same day, 16 March 1817. The elder boy, Robert was 'delivered into the care of his friends' at age 13 on 3 Sept 1821. John Jerram enlisted in the 3 Foot Guards at age 14 on 14 Sept 1826. Your next step in following John's military career is to check the muster rolls of the 3 Foot Guards for 1826 to find out what happened to him and the rolls of the Coldstream Guards for his father. They might well be kept at Kew. One of the research helpers will give you a hand for your further research. Did I write to you about this before? If so, I cannot find a record of what I wrote. Please enlighten me.

Art C

25 May 2005

Thank you so much for the information. I assumed Charles was dead. I have John Jerram later on - he joined the 2nd Life Guards as a farrier, which seems a bit of a leap from the foot? But it has to be him, I think, identical birth date and name. He's been very tricky to research - the first we knew he was in the military, was when it appeared on one of his children's birth certificates. Then I found him on census as a retired army pensioner...However, I had never found his baptism, nor been able to attach him to any parents or family, until I found your entry. I do have his papers now from his time in the 2nd Life Guards (25 years) as I paid a researcher.

You hadn't received an email from me before - sorry if I confused you by the reference to the abbreviation for "James" (Jas.). A page on your website queried what "Jas." stood for, and I was answering that. Do I take it I can find out more about him in his youth from the Coldstream Guards records - presumably at Kew? I will probably have to pay a researcher again, so I will have to be careful to know what to ask for. And I've assumed his father Charles was also in the army - but then, I also mistakenly thought he was a deceased soldier. I would love to look up any records for him also. A truly marvellous site, thank you so much. And how brilliant that a simple Google search on a name took me straight to it.

Laura

25 May 2005

Do excuse parts of my last e-mail - the questions - I have just re-read your email properly and see that you have already answered those points! Terribly sorry, I was in an awful rush. John joined the Life Guards in 1832 so must have been in the third foot briefly before then. Will tell the researcher to track him! Thanks again

Laura

23 May 2005

Laura, If John joined the Life Guards in 1832, it must have been his son, Henry Jerram, who joined the RMA (entry No. 7876) at age 7 years and 8 months on 29 March 1855. Are you aware of this? Check the RMA register yourself. Henry's father is registered as Pte John Jerram of the 2nd Life Guards. John was alive at the time. His wife, Mary, was registered as deceased. Henry Jerram became a monitor at the Normal School on 27 July 1863, which meant he was headed for a pretty decent career in teaching and probably became an army schoolmaster sergeant. (See my book The Charity of Mars for a description of the training of army schoolmasters). Regarding John (and Henry for that matter), I take it you are aware you can obtain a copy of the Petition for a Soldier's Son, which gives considerable information on the family of the applicant. Attached is a copy of page 1 of my own petition made in 1937 to give you some idea what to expect. The school's petition records go back to 1803. You need to quote the name, entry number (I've given you Henry's. John's registration number is 4139) and state your relationship to them. You should write to Mr. R. Say, Bursar, Duke of York's Royal Military School, Dover, Kent, CT15 5EQ, England. A small donation for the service might work wonders. Anyway, let me know if Henry is yet another forebear in your paternal line and his relationship to you – g-grandfather perhaps? Peter and I would be most interested.

Art

24 May 2005

No, I didn't know this. I found John's children and then a couple more when I finally got the family together for the first time on census in 1861, when it came on line. No Henry was ever there (now I know why!) I could see then that John was a widow - later he married again. He still "blacksmithed" for quite a while after he left the army, despite the lumbago which saw him leave and get his pension. I had found a Henry Jerram leaving the same regiment, as John joined, and he was born same area as John. I wondered if it was an uncle - as I said, I've never yet been able to link John to any family, despite finding Henry's. Sounding more likely now you have found a son of the same name. John is my g-g-grandfather. I traced him through my great grandmother, Elizabeth. I was set on tracking them because we have a photograph of her and she looks just like my mother and myself. I paid a researcher for John's 3rd foot career and his father Charles' records. Now I'll be on the hunt again thanks to your new information!

We are terribly proud of John. I have found horses in all branches of the family, which explains why our generation appears to have been born saying "horse". As a little girl, I spurned the Barbie ponies and insisted on having Action Man's Life Guard horse, with all the equipment - I loved it and it's the only toy I've kept. I wrote to the Queen admiring her soldier's horses and had a letter back...and now bizarrely I've found this connection. Elizabeth died young, when my grandfather was only 5, but seems to have left a great impression on him as "a lady". At first I found John on her marriage certificate as "blacksmith". No-one had any idea he was in the army.

My mother is in her eighties and very pleased and excited, just sorry grandfather (also an accomplished horse man) didn't know. I have found a lovely picture online of a farrier in the 2nd Life Guards (1902) (you can't print it off, unfortunately) and am determined to find one I can buy for my mother to put on her wall. Thank you so very much for the information, I would assume my emails would go into a black hole as you must be far too busy to cope with all the queries. I will let you know what I find and hope it may be useful.

Laura

24 May 2005

Laura, I'm glad to have been of help. You're welcome. I try to answer all correspondence, but post only a selection of the interesting ones. Your inquiry for a RMA entrant, going back to the 1813, is for one of the earliest we've had. Hence our interest. Your best chance of getting a copy of the farrier of the 2nd Life Guards PC is the National Army Museum, London. For what it's worth, Henry Jerram was the son of John & Mary Jerram; no doubt about that. The surname and 2nd Life Guards connection is proof of that.

Art

You might like to have a look at our website and maybe put in a link on yours. It is www.bkva.co.uk and I am the webmaster of Surrey West Branch (British Korean Veterans).

Thanks, Cyril Luger

6 May 2005

Cyril, I'm willing to make the link for which you ask on our www.achart.ca website, but it has to be justified - as I'm sure you'll agree. I've been to your site and, it seems to me, the only logical best reason for creating a link would be if you have any ex-Dukies registered in your association. That would be a good reason - and might even lead to writing an article being posted on Duke of York boys being in the Korean War. I would need info from you for such purpose. You would also need to make a link on your website to the www.achart.ca site. The cc recipients of this exchange are far-flung alumni interested in our site.  

Art

7 April 2005

Art, I get your point about ex-Dukes, but I regret that there is no way I can find out from about 4000 members UK wide who is and who isn't. I can ask in my branch but they were nearly all National Servicemen. Keep up the good work and I'll keep an eye on your website from time to time.
Cyril

7 April 2005

Cyril, There is, perhaps, another way of finding out. I'll see what I can do by posting a notice on a Dukie website (accessible only to Dukies) and see what response it produces. I'll keep you posted.

Art

Note to readers: if anyone knows of Dukies who served in the Korean War please contact me.

Art, I have described the first page in the Normal School Ledger. A first in every thing, numero uno, altogether there are 101 pages; I'll do these first, purely out of interest. They can only get better. I just thought that you would appreciate the standards of the Normal School Students, The first of anything is a memorable occasion, but the first in three fields takes some believing, me thinks he is Australian, but no, he is from Leeds, perhaps he was referring to the SOB painting?
Peter

Art, I came across this statement on a chat site recently, is it basically true?

"However an industry insider explained to me that with the exception of Canadian Candu reactors, all nuclear reactors run on enriched uranium. There are only a few companies in the world who have the capability of enriching uranium. That's where the bottleneck, if any, should occur."
Terry

12 May 2005

Terry, What was stated is correct. CANDU fuel rods use 'unrefined uranium' (although the uranium has to be extracted from yellowcake ore) and operate in heavy water (as the moderator). Most other reactor designs (British, American, Russian) are 'hot water reactors' (not heavy water) using carbon control rods as the moderator and are, therefore, prone to meltdown as happened at Chernobyl and Three-mile Island. The CANDU reactor would never reach a meltdown state. On the other hand, serious damage can result if things 'go wrong'. In my experience, the worst accident of any CANDU reactor around the world is a spillage of heavy water, which is radioactive making it a radiation hazard.

Hot water reactors - and similar designs - all require the use of enriched uranium. I do not believe, however, the statement that 'only a few reactors companies in the world' are capable of enriching uranium. Enrichment is a technology generally known and understood by nuclear
physicists world wide. I hope this answers your question.
Art

I am trying to find out about all park school old boys I think it might have been a troop from 1914 to 1919 war. I have a memorial plaque that was made from the bell that hung at the school, that says for those that gave their lives.  the bell hung there from 1827 to 1919, any information would be great,  Thank you. E-mail me at pharlene39@msn.com. 

16 May 2005

Sorry to tell you that we have no information on the old boys of Park School who served in the 1914-1918 war. Depending on where you are - the British Isles, North America, Downunder etc - you would first have to get a line on Park School. Where is it? Does it still exist?

    I should think your first line of inquiry would be in the school records. Many schools and institutions formed troops and larger formations for military service during WWI. Think of the Bantam battalions out of Liverpool and North East England, for example, the Univ. of Toronto Medical Faculty (formed a medical unit, I believe, though I might be mistaken here). More info is needed to suggest leads you might follow. First, however, tell me more about Park School: where? history? continuing existence? etc.

Art C

Ian, (Army Catering Corps contact) I am researching the Royal Hibernian Military School, Dublin. see www.rhms-searcher.co.uk and www.achart.ca

In 1877, there was a change of policy re. catering and a new diet was introduced. As a result and, for the next 60 years, additional data was entered into the ledgers: On admission, each entrant's height, weight and chest measurements were included; i.e. from 1 January 1847 to 31 December 1907. This provides an invaluable source of data re. the physical measurements of children in the range of 7 to 11 years admitted during that period. The data will be of interest to researchers doing physiological research.

In 1927, a reference appears in the minutes of the Board of Commissioners of the Duke of York's School – with references to the Gordon Boys School, Woking, and the Royal Victoria School, Dunblane – suggesting a change of diet and also to measure the boys. I'm finding it difficult to locate where these records might be if they exist at all. 

From 1959 to 1962, I was ration NCO for 3 Division, Bulford, Wilts, and from 1968, Hospital Steward at BMH Cyprus. This meant accounting for the rations issued to the Hospital Catering Department per the ration scales of that time. At Bulford I used the bed (or ration) state to calculate the rations to be issued. Tithe set issue was, for example, 1/7th oz tea daily and 2/7th of an egg, 1 oz sugar and so on. I might be way out, but I little realized then how useful that same information would be now. There was a living-out allowance of 6/- per day; also in my mind is a cash figure of about 3/5d per day.

Can you tell me where I might find details of these ration scales as well as the daily allowance per day for man or boy? We are doing research on the 'obesity factor' during the Victorian age during the period 1847 to 1907; another change occurred in 1927 as I've indicated. Having this data would be, as I said earlier, invaluable for anyone researching the obesity of children in contemporary children of an equivalent age group. Thanks,

Peter Goble

Art, My apologies for leaving it so long to thank you for the book. Uncle [Michael – last known living Royal Hibernian] going into respite for two weeks next Sunday and my sister, Pat, and I are taking the opportunity to have a break in the sun. Haven't read the book yet, but I have to say that it's beautifully presented. I'm looking forward to reading it while I'm away. When I come back, I intend to reply to Dan Kirwan's letter to Uncle Michael. I'm afraid Uncle has gone beyond the letter writing stage. If he made the effort, he could probably make a fist of writing a few lines, but he just doesn't do anything that requires concentration.

One matter that keeps popping in and out of my mind re the articles on your website. Ireland didn't become a Republic in 1922. Had dominion status until Republic declared (in Canada) in 1948. Most people wouldn't notice, but I thought I had better bring it to your attention. Peter sent me some pictures and data on CD, too.

Maria.

I found your site because I wanted to purchase a copy of The Charity of Mars. I live in Toronto and am researching the Royal Victoria Patriotic Asylum set up after the Crimean War in 1857. I want to compare the two schools.

Can you please let me know how to get a copy of your book? For your information a Patricia Lin, PhD Student out of California, has written her dissertation on the RMA from it's inception to around 1820. If you want the reference let me know.

Linda (Pygiel)

25 April 2005 12:14 PM

Linda, Thanks for your inquiry. If you send me a cheque or money order to 98 Maria's Quay, Cobourg, ON K9A 5R6 I'll mail you a copy. I'll need your street address.

I have a copy of Pat Lin's dissertation. She sent it to me about a year after she finished it. I urged her to get it published in a book form. Her references to the RMA, though specific, she quotes to support her thesis on the social aspects stemming from the military necessities of the French wars (1793-1815). I believe that my book Sons of the Brave (1984 Secker & Warburg), which is more in the nature of the story of rather than a history, might have influenced her choice of thesis. I'm pleased to note that a number of social historians have embarked on related projects: Howard Clarke, is researching a doctoral thesis on the Royal Hibernian Military School, Dublin; Jean Stone is working on the history of the cotton apprentices of the Cressbrook Mill, Derbyshire; others are at work in the field too.

I'll be interested in your work on the RVPA. If I'm not mistaken, the Royal Soldiers Daughters Home was an off-shoot of the RVPA: something had to be done for the girls when they were unceremoniously excluded from the RMA in the 1840s.

Art

25 April 2005

Art, Thank you for your email. I will send you a cheque in the mail and my address for your book. It's so nice not to have to pay in US dollars! You are just around the corner from me! I am in Don Mills. I will be in England at the Public Records Office for 3 weeks from May 3 to 24 so I don't need your book until after I get back. 

I am a "mature" PhD history student at York University and writing my dissertation on soldier's, sailor's, marine's widows in the mid-nineteenth century in Britain. I came across lots of references to the Patriotic Fund established during the Crimean War and the pensions and schooling provided from the contributions to the fund. This got me interested in state and charity military welfare.

I am challenging Lin's assertion that "citizenship" was an outcome of these state schemes. I argue that it is another experiment by the state for manning the navy and increasing army strength and to appease the poor law contributors. Unlike the First World War when conscription came in and voting rights (which Lin does not talk about) nothing had changed in the structure of society for the rank and file in the early nineteenth century – rankers were still subject to floggings, continuous service and impressment. I can go on with some other thoughts which my supervisor and I have discussed about Lin's work but I don't want to bore you. What I am finding difficult to find in my research, however, are marriage statistics for the navy, marines and army from the end of the Napoleonic War to the Crimean War. It is a shortcoming of Lin's work that she does not say who where the dependents of the sailors receiving allotments. Any thoughts on marriage rates or where I can find them?

Linda (Pygiel)

Hi, I have been reading up for a while on Royal Hibernian Military School and surrounding history as I believe I had a relative that worked there. The Dublin Directory of 1838 has Valentine Archer, Sergeant Major, Royal Hibernian Military School. (Phoenix St Parish of St Michan?) His wife was Jane Love. I also have records of his daughter (Mary) (Emily) (Agnes) Archer arrived Port Phillip (Australia) 26 May 1849 in ship Pemberton aged 18 as Governess or matron as one of the "Irish orphan girl" ships. This one was carrying 24 girls from RHMS. Apart from family birth records, the above directory is the only information I can find on Valentine. He must have left some other military records at least. Can you please offer any suggestions as to where I could search further.

Don Tylee

13 May 2005

Don, Unfortunately, there are no records of the staff of the RHMS. Art Cockerill, may be able to add to the Pemberton data, he does have some info. If you know the Regiment of Valentine ARCHER, you could try the National archives, in the WO index, locate the Muster Rolls for his Regiment, then visit the National Archives at Kew, and view the records. Another way is to join the yahoo Britregiments list, there may be others searching that Regiment.

Peter

13 May 2005

Don, You are correct in your information about Sgt Archer's daughter. She is on the passenger list of the SS Pemberton as shown in the extract here:

20	Archer, Mary A	21	Governors	RC	Both

You will find the detailed list at www.achart.ca/hibernian/pemberton.html  A couple of observations here might help. 

Her age is given as 21 whereas you give her age as 18. Along with Mary Archibald, she is designated as 'Governors', which is an obvious a mistake on the passenger list. She was a 'governess'. Had her father not been on the staff of the RHMS, she would have left the school at age 14. Detailed below the passenger list is the name and address of the person in Australia to whom she was apprenticed. Her employer's details are:  

20	Mr Stewart	Gipps Land, Victoria	20	12 mths	19 Jun

Peter Goble has given you a lead to getting further information on Sgt Archer. With Stewart of Gipps Land, Victoria, you have a possible lead through Australian genealogical records of the subsequent life of Mary Archer.

Is it possible that Jane Love was Archer's second wife? Might that explain why Mary Archer consented to ship with the other RHMS girls to Australia on the SS Pemberton? I should appreciate learning from you of any additional information you might find.

Art C

May 13, 2005

Don, Unfortunately, there are no records of the staff of the RHMS. Art Cockerill, may be able to add to the Pemberton data, he does have some info. If you know the Regiment of Valentine ARCHER, you could try the National archives, in the WO index,  locate the Muster Rolls for his Regiment, then visit the National Archives at Kew, and view the records. Another way is to join the yahoo Britregiments list, there may be others searching that Regiment.

Peter

14 May 2005

Don. The response by Art Cockerill has bounced. Try this way.

Peter

15 May 2005

Gents, Thanks for your response to my email. I would appreciate your further thoughts on the following:

1. Do you have any idea how I find what regiment Valentine was in? I have been doing some research on Australian Army and starting to understand the structure, but have no idea about Ireland. 

2. I guess my most basic question is whether he would have been in the British Army, or was there Irish army / police regiments? 

3. Are there likely to be any particular regiments associated with staffing RHMS? Is he likely to be Irish origin or something else?

4. Do I just have to hire someone to troll through all regiment lists of the time?

5. Is it likely that Mary was schooled with the military orphans? If so, would she show up on the list of enrolments (I haven't found her in the lists I have seen in the Irish Genealogy magazine and books).

6. What triggers the thought of Valentine having a second wife?  I am not able to find/confirm any BDM records associated with any of the family in Ireland.  Thus I do not know if Valentine or Jane were alive when Mary left Ireland, or anything about weddings or siblings.

7. I have noticed the discrepancy in age and also a change in name when she arrives in Australia, but feel there are so many similarities, and scarcity of people in the area she settled in Australia, that it is the same person. There is a trail of partial name changes through BDM records and mostly Mary goes under the name of Emily. She consistently records she was born in Phoenix Park Dublin, and her parents are Valentine Archer (Teacher) and Jane (Love).

8. have been researching her Australian history for around 10 years and have some pages of notes from BDM, public records, newspapers, police records etc. Emily married 3 times. Are you interested in any of this side, or just RHMS side?

Don

15 May 2005

Answering your questions sequentially:

1. Valentine Archer was in a regiment of the British Army stationed in Ireland. He would have left his regiment to join the staff of the RHMS in the rank of Sergeant Schoolmaster, which narrows your field of inquiry. To begin your search of Irish regiments stationed in Ireland, connect with http://www.regiments.org/ There are some sites on the web that specify which regts. were stationed where and when.

2. There was no Irish Army until at least 1924. Ireland was a Dominion until 1948 when it became a republic. Archer could not have been in the police. The RHMS was a military institution of the British Army.

3. The RHMS was staffed by personnel of units stationed in Ireland, but not from particular units. I would not know if Archer was Irish. He could have been, but not necessarily. During the 19th Century, Irish recruits amounted to an average of 40% in the British Army.

4. Peter is more knowledgeable than am I when it comes to checking regimental muster rolls, which is what you're referring to re. regimental lists. Maybe Peter can comment.

5. If her father was on staff, Mary would almost certainly be educated at the RHMS, at least until she was 14 or so. She might then have had training as a governess while still living at home.

6. The fact that you identify Archer's wife as Jane Love. Why not Jane Archer or Jane Love Archer? It's unusual to refer to a man's wife by her maiden name, that's all.

7. Mary Archer was undoubtedly Sgt Archer's daughter. [I've already questioned if she was Jane (nee?) Love's.]

8. I am most interested in Mary Archer's entire history, not simply the RHMS part of it, so would appreciate anything else you can tell me. She is the first of the SS Pemberton children about whose subsequent history is known. It's worth a follow-up on the RHMS history site given enough info to make an interesting report. Do you have an image of her?

Art

15 May 2005

Don, Forgive me in sticking my nose in. I am resident in Melbourne Australia, and I'm guessing that your email address MAY put you in the same locale. Then again I have been known to be wrong (many occasions). You may have noticed my CC on mail from Art & Peter. Thinking to yourself "I wonder who that is". Then again you probably couldn't care.

If I am repeating what you already know, I'm sorry. I have no access nor interest in Genealogy, save to having an interest in Australian History (All 200 years plus). One item or name that in your e-mail's could delay search, is that Gipps Land is one word, Gippsland. It is the land area directly to the East of Melbourne. Actually 30 Kms from Melb. city centre begins Gippsland, West to East.

"The Mitchell Library" in Sydney is the oldest institution in Aust. And has virtually ALL history of Australia from 1788 (Colonisation, by the military and the "Prisoner of Mother England. POME") This is thought to be the original title for the English migrant Pommy. Another thought. Melbourne has "The immigration Museum" But I think that may be only the later migrants. Still it may be worth a gander.

Brian Marley.

Don, A difficult task. The RHMS ledgers were partially destroyed by fire in 1942 as were other documents in the WO (Military) series, and to make things difficult, the crown decided not to keep the census records for Ireland.

The first ledger to which I have access dates from 1834, but this is male entrants only. The register for female entrants is among the missing. This ledger would have solved the problem, with date of admission, Plea No. followed by a number 1 to four indicating 'parents dead', 'father dead', 'mother dead' or 'both alive' followed by regiment of the father and date of discharge.

I have checked the Latter Day Saints 'Vital Records' containing marriage & Births in Ireland with no success. Other documents to query are the Marriage Certificate and the Birth Certificate of his daughter. Also the Latter day Saints main site has a reference to Mary ARCHER, but no other detail. Archer may have re-enlisted in the Veterans, Army pensioners. Many went to Australia to act as security and guards for the transportees. Another possibility is that he became a Chelsea Pensioner and possibly ended his days as an Out-Pensioner rather than an In-pensioner (Living in at the Royal Hospital)

I must assume that Valentine Archer did not go to Australia; and having logged onto the National Archives web site. then the 1871 census. A search of the census reveals quite a few ARCHERS, with the first name of Valentine. It is a long, slow job.

As Mary was aged 20 in 1849 I would estimate that her father would be about 50 that year. The search I did was for Valentine ARCHER Born 1800 +-10 years  The permanent staff of the RHMS were drawn from all Regiments of the British Army. Many of the Regiments were of course raised in Ireland. I will keep Valentine ARCHER at the top of the list, and hope that something will strike. We are both very interested in the female side of the RHMS; any information is welcome. Art, I think, covers this well in his response earlier.

Peter

16 May 2005

Thanks for all responding - I have sent a separate email response to Brian, before reading the rest.  I am not sure if you are all interested, but assume you will read or ignore as you like.  Let me know if you wish to drop out of the loop.

Just to explain myself a little, I am 44, live in Traralgon, Gippsland, Victoria, Australia, and have two kids and a wife.  About 13 years ago when I stopped work to raise my oldest son, I started finding my family tree (whilst he slept in the pram at the library).  I am not that interested in tracing back to Adam and Eve, and was more focusing on what happened in Australia when the ancestors arrived.  I was also interested in what life held for the immigrants and why they left their homeland.  I am now back working full time, and have moved on to fleshing out the local history about my ancestors as a hobby.  My latest research efforts are in local papers, local history books, public records office, police records, land records, internet, RHMS etc.  And I tend to follow branches of history that have records to find, and a bit of interest - thus Emily Archer. Archer is actually my wife's ancestor but more interesting than mine.

I have been particular interested in the Archer family as she provided a challenge in tracking BDM.  She married three times, with various slight name changes, and seemed to be a survivor through many struggles.  I have about 10 pages of research notes on her and family, but have never written them into a cohesive story.  I do not have a photo of her, but have put out a call on the Gippsland History news email to see if anyone else has.  Until reading your information, I didn't think of Emily (Mary) as a RHMS girl - she was a Matron on the Pemberton looking after RHMS girls, and then a Governess when she arrived in Australia but I presumed not an orphan  - are you still interested?.

I am more than willing to share information with you.  I might start with a dot point chronology of her life, and could now add a fair bit of local history to her story.  I have attached a copy of my research notes into her, and her "main" husband.  Please note that these have tit bits that are not likely to be related to our interest area.  You will also gather that I have copies of documents that are only mentioned in the notes, and held at home.  I will recheck the Australian BDMs for her parents but figure my most likely source of definitive info is to find his military record as other Irish sources are rare, and Archer is not that rare in Britain. Is Sgt Archer still considered to be in the Army when he work at RHMS?

I have started cruising www.regiments.org, but I best get some rest before work tomorrow.

Don

16 May 2005

Don, Everything you share with us is of interest, no matter how slight. I am convinced that you have details on the same Mary Archer who was at the RHMS, Phoenix Park, and on the passenger list of the SS Pemberton. I'll not dispute your contention that she was a matron even though appearing on the passenger list as a 'governess'. It's quite probable that a) she was designated 'matron' by the authorities on account of her age and seniority among so many younger girls and woman b) she might have been listed as an RHMS girl for the benefit of getting free passage to Australia on the Pemberton.

Her story is an exciting one from the viewpoint of RHMS girls because, unlike many of her contemporaries at the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea, of whom we do have slight records, Mary is the first woman out of Phoenix Park for whom we do now have a history. Her father would have retired from his regiment to become a member of the staff of the RHMS under, I believe, Commandant Columb (?).

You didn't answer my question about Jane Love. That had to have been her maiden name. The Royal Hib authorities were very strict about engaging married staff and wouldn't have countenanced any other relationship. She could, however, have been Mary's stepmother. Any possibility of that? It would be splendid if you could find an image of Mary Archer, of the SS Pemberton or other ships of the period that brought immigrants to Australia. I should like to write a short article on Mary Archer to post on the RHMS page.

Art

Art, Sorry for the oversight. I have two wedding certificates for Emily Archer showing her father as Valentine Archer  and her mother as Jane Love (maiden name according to certificates).  This does not guarantee that Jane Love was her mother, but I think Emily BELIEVED Jane to be her mother. These marriages occurred in 1875 (fathers occupation stated as School master), 1883 (father stated as teacher). The birth certificates of several of her children, and some of her marriage certificates have her birth place recorded as Phoenix Park, Dublin, Ireland. If Emily is correct, there is a fair chance that she was born at RHMS and spent all her childhood there before leaving for Australia.

Don