Army schoolmasters
DYRMS Commandants
Light Dragoons
RMA genealogy
Roll of RMA children
RHMS
Sir Percy Sillitoe
Thomas Bidgood connections

I am trying to find information on a Robert Dickson/Dixon Hill who was a schoolmaster at the college. He also worked at Army schools in India. I think he would have been in Dublin early in the 1900s. Can you tell me where I could find information on Army Schoolmasters please? Also interested to see your surname as I have Cockerills in my family tree. Henry Mylam Cockerill was convicted to 7 years transportation to the then Van Diemens Land in the early 1800s.

Rosemary (Davidson)
Hobart, Tasmania

3 January 2006

Rosemary, I am passing your inquiry to my colleague, who has the available extant records of the Royal Hibs. As to the Cockerills in your family tree I'm delighted the criminal element were given a fighting chance in Van Diemen's Land and didn't languish in Newgate or, even worse, perish there.

Art

3 January 2006

Rosemary, Information re the Corps of Army Schoolmasters, is proving difficult to find. I have started a data base of Schoolmasters who appear in the Census of UK from 1850 to 1901. I've also checked the RHMS, Dublin, census for 1901 and 1910. (History of the RHMS. Geo O'Reilly 20010.) The name Hill does not appear in either. If he was at the RHMS in 1901 or 1910, it is possible that he may have had quarters out of the RHMS. The list also includes those who received campaign medals in the 14-18 War. I did not discover a Hill among them. I'm in contact with the curator of the Logistics Corps Museum, which includes the Schoolmaster Corps. His email is agc.museum@milnet.uk.net He's aware of the lack of information and is collecting and re-cataloguing the data held at the museum. I think it is time I set the Schoolmaster data base up on my web site, perhaps others, like you, will provide details otherwise lost. Thank you for your enquiry. I shall keep you in my ASM folder and, should anything definite turn up, I will inform you.

Peter

Duke of York's Military School enquiry: Is this the correct email address? I have an historical enquiry regarding my uncle who I believe was in charge of the school around 1911-1914.

Fiona Archontoulis (Brisbane, Australia)

12 January 2006

Hello Fiona,

If by 'in charge of the school' you mean the commandant, the Board of Governors were retired officers apppointed to the post. Our records indicate that the Commandant from 1910 – 1913 was Colonel Arthur Morris C.M.G., D.S.O. of the Royal Irish Regiment; from 1913 – 1914 Colonel George Nugent M.V.O. of the Grenadier Guards and the Irish Guards (he served in both regiments); and from 1914 – 1919, Lt. Col. John Dyke C.B.E., M.V.O. of The Queens Regiment. If he is any one of these gentlemen, I should like to hear from you further. On the other hand, if he is none of them, but is connected with the school in some other capacity we might perhaps be able to identify him for you. I should, however, point out that for the duration of WWI, the school premises at Dover were evacuated to Hutton, Essex, for use as a transit station for personnel to and from the Western Front. The premises would have been under the command of a regular serving military officer.

Art W. Cockerill

12 January 2006

Art, I should clarify - I understand he was in charge of the DOY Hospital during Colonel George Nugent's time as Commandant. My Uncle was Sergeant Major Alfred Fowler. I have a letter of reference signed by Brig. Gen. Nugent for Alfred Fowler when he applied for the post of temporary Quartermaster at the Liverpool Merchants Mobile Hospital from 1915-1919. I have attached a photo of Alfred and his wife Lucinda taken I believe at DOY in 1911. I think that Alfred was involved in another capacity at DOY before being in charge of the hospital... I am also enquiring as to whether any births occurred at the DOY hospital around those years? Looking forward to hearing from you again.

Fiona

12 January 2006

Fiona, Thanks for the additional information as well as the photograph of Sergeant Major Fowler and his wife. I should like to use it if we can dig up enough information for an article on him. To this end, any information you can provide on him, his family and military career would be welcome. You write of his possible involvement with the school in some other capacity. Is it possible that he was a student at the school? If so, that would probably be when the institution existed under the name of the Royal Military Asylum (1803-1892). It was renamed the Duke of York's RMS in 1892. I'll ask my colleague Peter by copy of this note if he can trace his name in the 'admissions register'. If he is listed you'll be in luck, for we'll have information on his parents and the military unit in which his father served. Attached is a copy of Chapter Ten from the Play Up Dukies book by George Shorter, which  deals with the evacuation of the school during WWI. This might interest you. The other history, The Charity of Mars, covers only the 1803 to 1892 period.

Art

I would be very grateful for your advice regarding the following problem: My great great grandfather, John William Hanson, enlisted in the 25th Light Dragoons (previously the 29th Light Dragoons) on 31 July 1809, at Maidstone, Kent. According to the description book, he was aged 15 years, and he gave his birthplace as Tourney (sic) Flanders, and his trade as labourer. He had two tours to India, eventually dying there in 1832. He was promoted to Corporal in 1811 and Sergeant in 1814. His wife and children accompanied him on his second tour, and his youngest son was born on a raft on the River Ganges. Despite 22 years of searching, I have been unable to discover John Hanson’s parentage, although I wonder if he may have been the son of a soldier involved in the French Revolutionary Wars – I know that there were substantial numbers of British troops in and around Tournai during 1794. Despite giving his trade on enlistment as labourer, John was clearly very well educated. I have a typed transcript of a letter written by him on his first voyage to India in 1810 when he would have been 16 years, which indicates a very high standard of literacy. Unfortunately the letter is addressed to “Dear Brothers and Friends” so no real clue there. If his father was in the army at Tournai, do you think his high standard of education could have been provided by the army? I did wonder if he could have been orphaned, and sent to an army boarding school, but the only one I have discovered that appears to have been operational at about the right time is the Royal Hibernian in Ireland. The other possibility is that he was born in Tournai because he was Belgian, but again, his competent use of English appears to belie this.

Hilary Sculthorp

15 January 2006

Hilary, I've considered your question and speculation and offer this comment. It is possible that John Hanson was the son of a soldier of the French Revolutionary wars (1793-1815). Your speculation seems reasonable, considering the Duke of York commanded the expedition to Tornai, Flanders in 1793, the place where the army was in winter quarters. However, that's as far as it goes. If you g-g-g-father was 15 in 1809, his YOB would be 1794, which is why I'd agree that a British soldier of York's army could have been his father. However, when the RMA opened in August 1803, he would have been ten years of age – again, possible for entry to the RMA, but not probable. Besides, as I wrote earlier, the first Hanson admitted to the RMA was not until 1837, which rules out any connection with the RMA. In my opinion – Peter Goble may have other ideas – your best bet for picking up a trail is via the 'morning reports' of the 25th Light Dragoons beginning with the day after the date of his enlistment, 31 July 1809. You might also check the morning reports for 1832 to determine the date of his death. Morning reports are kept in the National Archives at Kew. These reports give the state of the unit including known detail of every officer, NCO and trooper (in the case of cavalry): Name, rank, DOB, date of enlistment, occupation on enlistment, place, disposition. Making contact with whoever operates the unit (or its successor) museum might be another useful avenue. Frankly, I don't think we can help you any further. If you can visit Kew, you will find people at the military history desk very willing to help guide you.

Art C

16 January 2006

This is an altogether fascinating branch of my family. John William Hanson’s wife Louisa, nee Graham, her parents, siblings and daughters were members of a little known non conformist sect – the Muggletonians – whose archive is at the British Library. I’m not sure whether John was a Muggletonian – I have always doubted that he was, although his writing about the earthquake is pasted in the Muggletonian Book of Songs, and perhaps the fact that his children were not baptised until just before they left for India may be significant. I also wonder whether his letter being addressed to his Brothers and Friends may also indicate a religious connection. He could have been writing to soldiers still at Maidstone Barracks (although he left for India almost immediately following enlistment) or perhaps his biological brothers. I don’t know if John’s sons Henry Frederick and John Ganges were Muggletonians, but presumably they wouldn’t have been admitted to the RMA if it had been known that their mother was not a member of the established church? Louisa was financially supported by the sect after her return from India, and married another sect member some years later. The sect had some fairly (by today’s standards) quirky beliefs, but they appear to have been very charitable to poorer members and to have respected each other irrespective of financial status or gender. The letter from the Julia is lovely isn’t it? It has really brought John to life as a lively, intelligent fifteen year old. I only received it a couple of weeks ago, from Sharon Hicks, and am still amazed at John’s standard of literacy.

Hilary

16 January 2006

Hilary, I was discussing with Peter your interesting message arrived this morning. He is answering you directly with his observations, so I'll not second guess what he has to say. Nevertheless, this whole subject of the Hanson and Fields is fascinating enough to consider writing a short piece of them for our web site. We get an ocean of data from inquiries as you might guess. Not all of them, however, are interesting. Some on the other hand are worth writing about – and this one of the Hanson and Fields is in that category. That letter written from the Julia makes interesting reading, too. I'll wait to read what Peter has to say.

Art

Art, Thank you very much, not only for your swift and helpful advice, but also for forwarding my e-mail to Peter who has come up with some new and fascinating information regarding John William’s sons' education. Both my parents and I have visited Kew (although not for many years) and have transcribed the details about John Hanson’s service in the 25th Light Dragoons in WO25 303 Page 119 – Indexed Description Book and John’s record of Promotions and Reductions during the period 1.9.1810 to 21.10.1819 and WO12 1502 – 1511 which describes his movements. We also have similar details for his second tour of India with the 11th Dragoons, from WO12 989 – 998, covering the period 3.12.1819 -  to his death in hospital at Landour on 17.7.1832. The morning reports sound like something more detailed though? I think perhaps I need to go to Kew again!

With regard to John William Hanson’s parentage, I have tried the records of foreign births and deaths at the end of the C18th on the 1837 site, and many years ago, wrote to the local registry office in Tournai, but with no success. Given the picture drawn of the circumstances of families on the march, given in Following the Drum by Annabel Venning, which I am currently reading, I think my search for those sort of records was probably overly optimistic! I am sending you a couple of attachments. The first is a typed copy of a letter in the possession of my distant cousin (recently discovered) Sharon Hicks, who is directly descended from John Hanson’s son Henry Frederick. This was written by John William Hanson from aboard the Julia bound for India. Although this is undated, we know it must have been his outward journey on his first trip in 1809, when he was about 15 years old, since the second time, he travelled on The Maitland. Unfortunately, we have no idea of the identity of the recipient of the letter, or even of the transcriber, although it could have been Henry Frederick’s son William as suggested in the note at the top of the page. However, the note is incorrect regarding the earthquake experienced by the Hanson family, as John died in 1832. In fact, the document in a bible (actually a song book) to which the note refers, is in my possession (very difficult to read), and I have a handwritten transcript of it (attached) again giving the incorrect date of the earthquake in question. I have been able to confirm, from the memoirs of another dragoon held at the British Army Museum, however, that there was an earthquake on 24 October 1831, so presumably the transcriber, like us, was unable to fully read the date on the original.

Hilary

Peter, Three weeks ago you helped me with finding details of my grandad who entered the Royal Military Asylum in 1885 and advised me to contact Lt. Col. Say down at Dover in the hope that further records may be obtainable. I am pleased  to say that I was successfull in that I received eight A3 pages of information on my grandfather, copies of his admission, Petition and Certificate, Certificates of Recommendations, Baptism and letters from his father etc, which included information I had not known about. The service I received from Lt. Col. Say was excellent in every aspect so naturally I shall be sending a donation for school funds. I would like to thank you for your time and effort in helping me to obtain the above, without help from one another we would not get very far.

John Connor

26 January 2006

Hi, My grandfather attended the Military Asylum in 1901 and I have a copy of the centenary book that was obviously issued that year. There are a lot of photos in it and I would be happy to copy them if you think it would be of any interest.

Jennifer Lawson

Jennifer, Thanks for the contact. I'll happily accept your offer and look forward to receiving it. The two recipients on the cc line are Brian Marley of Melbourne, Australia, and Peter Goble in the UK. Please tell me your grandfather's history. Do you have photographs of him we might use? A bio perhaps! With his name, we might be able to tell you something about him and his parents of whom you might not be aware.

Art

27 January 2006

Hi, I am trying to find some information regarding my grandfather George William Hanna who was born 8 September, 1880 in Westminster, London, and is, I believe, the Geo W. Harma aged 10 of Westminster, London, shown on page 26 RG12/66 (1891). His father was William John Hanna, who he died 5 March 1890 and had been a soldier in the 27th Foot (No. 892) (joined 26 March 1859) and 37th Floot (1014 from November l, 1861). There do not appear to be any records on your site for him. I think his brother John may also have been at the school.

Jennifer Lawson

27 January 2006

Jennifer, I should have realized that your ref. was the Census on my web. but as I have yet to transcribe after 1880 I could not have known of the transcription error. This is the entry that seems to match your request. Entry No. 10,099 William J HANNAN, He was a Protestant admitted 28 November 1890. His father was A Gunner in the Royal Artillery. Father's first name was John, deceased at the date of admission as was the boy's Mother Martha. Wm was discharged from the RMA 15 December 1894 and enlisted into the 67th  Foot. Please confirm that this is your G-g-father, and I will make sure the names entered are correct.

Roll of RMA children

Ms. Hughes, You should by now have received a package that included a copy of The Charity of Mars book and the 'Roll of children' sponsored by, or volunteered to, the Royal Sappers & Miners or the Corps of Royal Engineers, both with our compliments. I will mail a photocopy of the General Gordon statue. Its identification is no longer necessary. I now have the information I need. I have mailed it as a courtesy copy to the museum in case it is not in your collection. Thank you for suggesting I contact the Corps Secretary of Institution of Royal Engineers regarding a review of the book. It would mean having my colleague pack and mail a copy for review. To the review editor, I should think it would be just another book arriving gratis in the hope some hapless writer might get a review. The book was a gift for the bi-centenary of the Duke of York's School with an introduction by HRH the Duke of Kent. A review is not that important. I was mistaken in thinking the museum staff would be in close enough contact with The Sapper journal - if that's still the name of the Corps publication – to loan the copy sent for a review. As this is evidently not the case, please forget that I broached the subject.

I came across your site and that of Mr. Goble today and found one of the sons of the man I am researching. The entry was for the Royal Hibernian Military School:

Index, CO3/27; Name, James Clout; Father's regiment, 4th Light Dragoons; Ledger Note,   Army Volunteer; Date, 6/11/1851

His father, George Clout, served with the 4th Light Dragoons (1829 to 1853), including ten years in Ireland (1831-1841) and five years in Ireland (1846-1851). In India, he and his first wife, Jane, had three sons: George  (b1832), Thomas (b 1834) and James (b 1836). After the family's return to England in 1842 Jane Clout died. I suspect this was during his posting to Ireland, but have so far been unable to find her death in Irish records. This left George, a farrier, with three teenage boys on his hands. The two eldest sons became farriers: George in the 4th Light Dragoons, Thomas as a civilian. George enlisted in the 4th Light Dragoons after they returned to England in 1891 and served for a time in the band. This is the entry from the 3rd quarter of the Pay and Muster Rolls of 1851 showing the entry for George senior, and his son's enlistment:

Regt. No: 587; Name: George Clout; OP: 92 days; GCP: 31 days @ 4d; GCP: 61 days @5d
Voucher: No. 9: Record of Service Pte. Clout; Remarks: Entitled to 5 GCP 1st August; Stationed at Hampton Ct.

Recruits who have joined during this quarter: Regt. No: 1491; Name: George Clout; Present: 14 07 1851 - 30 09 1851; Allowance while in stationary quarters: 54 days; Enlisted: 14 07 1851; Age: 19 and 3/12; Height: 5’ 7 and three quarters; Enlisted at: Hampton Court HQ; Bounty paid to recruit: £5 15s 6d; Paid to the party also for attesting or conducting recruits: 13s 6d; Stationed: Hampton Ct.

George remarried, Margaret Kerwin, when stationed at Athlone in 1848 and had four more  children. The eldest born was born in Dublin, the other three in Ipswich where George was discharged having broken his leg after slipping on the ice on the barrack square. His son James enlisted in the 4th Light Dragoons in Dublin in 1851, which has always seemed a little odd, as his family had been posted to London by then. It is curious that he would have been left alone as he was only young. Finding him in the military school is an interesting twist. This is the entry of his enlistment in the 4th quarter of the 1851 Pay and Muster Rolls:

Recruits who have joined during this quarter: Regt. No:  1514; Name: James Clout; Present: 21 11 1851 - 31 12 1851; Special Authority. Vouchers:  Nos. 23, 24, 25, 26; Reports of Recruits; Enlisted: 06 11 1851; Age: 15; Height: 4’ 11 and three quarters;
Enlisted at: Dublin District HQ; Bounty paid to recruit: £2 2s - Paid to the party also for attesting or conducting recruits: 13s 6d; Stationed: Woolwich &c

James served in the regimental band as a trumpeter. He was reduced to private just before the Crimean War in which both boys served. Meanwhile George senior joined the Turkish Contingent as Farrier Major and spent the war on the other side of the Crimean peninsular at Kertch. After the war the boys got into trouble: George was court-martialed for desertion and medically discharged in 1861; James was court-martialed five times and finally discharged with ignominy in 1863. George had gone to Bermuda in mid-1857 as an assistant warder in the penal colony there. After his dismissal in 1858 he seems never to have returned to England, much to the chagrin of his wife and four children. He died in the Bermuda poor house in 1869. Within a year his second family changed their surname to Cloud.

In view of what I have found out today about James and the military school, I was wondering if the records are complete for the late 1840s to early 1850s or whether the other two boys might also appear somewhere? Would it have been usual for a widower to have three boys living with him whilst trying to carry out his duties? The entry for James at the RHMS doesn't have an admittance date so it may be that he as only there from the time his family left Ireland in mid April 1851, until his enlistment. Following their discharges, nothing more is known of either young George or James.

Wendy Leahy.

2 December 2006

Wendy, I've added the message in your second to this response for my colleague, Peter Goble, who is expert with the extant records of the Royal Hibernian School. If he has the data he'll find the entry quicker than I could. Thanks for your info. Every bit helps us reconstruct the history of the Royal Hibs piece by piece.

Art

11 January 2006

Peter, I've been entering info. into my database as it's too difficult with all the multiple names to work out who is who from my lists. So far I've recorded only the 4LD BDMs [4th Light Dragoons births, deaths, marriages] in India from 1831 to 1841. I still have to extract the entries for 1821 to 1830. Also I've recorded some complete regimental P&M rolls, for 1831, 1839 and 1841, but only two of these three years have been entered on my database so far. [1839 and 1841]. I also have the passenger list for the regiment arriving in India in 1821/1822, but haven't yet entered that in the database. I also have partial P&M Rolls for other years, especially of the men who were in George's troop, or who were with James and George Clout junior in the 4LD band, such as the O'Brien boys. I have  some info. on my website, but haven't yet updated it with my latest London gleanings. The 1831 P&M is the last to list everyone by troops as opposed to ranks, and includes the thirty men who arrived that year with George Clout. The 1839 list shows those who went to Scinde and Ghuznee in the 1st Afghan War. Half the regiment went, the rest remained in Kirkee. And the 1841 list shows those who returned to England on the Repulse and the Mary, and those who transferred to other Indian-based regiments. At the end of their tour in 1841, a large number of men transferred to the 14th Light Dragoons, who were replacing them in India. A few more went to the 15th Hussars and the 3rd Light Dragoons. Many men who transferred to the 14LD were killed in battles with the Sikhs, or were caught up in the Mutiny. They had a much bloodier time of it in India than the 4LDs did, thereby producing more orphans for the schools I suppose.
Wendy

Wendy, I thought I was the only balm pot with databases and an urge to add more and more detail. Your gleanings amazed me. I have yet to enter the RMA & RHMS from 1880 to 1920, but I am getting around to it. Thanks for the added detail, I think the best approach is to add an asterisk to the names and then refer * Wendy's web site. I have to wait to adjust all pages, nearing 3000 pdf's, until I have added the next two ledgers. I came across a death at the RHMS on my mother's birthday, then another, finally there were 19, all on the same date. A cholera outbreak at the school, blamed on the boys eating unripe fruit.  Without this ability, this would have been missed.  

Peter

17 January 2006

Art, Thank you for your letter of November. Because I could not find the answers to my questions on the Royal Hibs history, I have attached a copy of the church marriage entry for James McDermot and Sarah Cheese. In it you will see that he signs his own name, not only that but the two witnesses also sign their names. One of which, James Doyle, I've seen in the regimental musters that were taken in India. Now it is these signatures that set me wondering about them having attended the school, being that writing wasn't at that time (1780's) a common accomplishment. My other question of the apprenticeship to become a farrier, I am a little doubtful of this at the school. Could you please let me know of the sort of social background for those times (1780's) that would have given them the education to learn to read and write.

Grantley Hoath

17 January 2006

Grantley, You've jogged my memory. Now I know who you are and understand your inquiry. I've discussed this with my colleague Peter. First, education. All the children admitted to the Royal Hibs were taught to read and write, no question about that. If James attended it would explain why he wrote well. The system used for teaching children in those days was probably a version of the Lancaster monitorial system. (The teacher delivered the lesson to selected children and who, in turn, taught their fellow students. Hence the word and meaning of 'monitor') I covered this subject in my book The Charity of Mars. The system was changed about the turn of the 19th Century, but was not that different.

Next, trades training. Children of the Hibs were taught a trade, both girls and boys:  tailoring, boot and shoe making, needlework and sewing etc. Farrier could well have been one of the trades. They were also 'indentured' from the age of fourteen. Again, see my book for the variety of trades to which these children were indentured. My commentary on the social mileau of that period is speculative. I should think your Irish historians would be far better qualified to dwell on the subject. The Royal Hibs board of governors and the supporters of the Hibernian school were, of course, part of the Protestant ascendancy, so there'd be a rather different experience for the children of the military establishment than, say, the general Roman Catholic population who were left to fend their own devices. The Hib children would certainly have been able to read and write by the time they left the school; and would have had enough training to take care of themselves. We do know from the meagre records we have that only some, but not a majority, of the boys enlisted for military service.

You're right about the relative rarity of literacy among the working population (I heard from colleagues in Ireland that even the priests were for the most part illiterate, which is why so many parish registers were destroyed and Ireland left bereft of decent genealogical records - incredible, but that's the way it was). This said, the church marriage entry for James and McDermot and Sarah Cheese was most interesting. The writing style doesn't surprise me. Children were taught to write in the copperplate style on their slates. Was the church registry you copied of Protestant or Roman Catholic origin?

Art

29 January 2006

Sir/Madam, My grandfather was a Chelsea Pensioner. He joined the Boys Army(?) at about 11 years of age. We believe he went to the Royal Hibernian Miltary School. These are the details that I have on him.

name: Christopher Woollams; born, 27/8/1890; North Staffs Regiment; Service no. 506991; Address, 9 Kings Street, Burslem, Staffordshire

I would be most grateful if you could supply me with any information on my grandfather or the Boys Army?

Ian Woollams

Ian, I have checked the RHMS Ledger, the name WOOLAM does not appear. Neither in the RMA ledger for the time frame given, born 1890. If you let me know the reference you are using I may be able to help more

Peter

30 January 2006

Peter, The name is WOOLLAMS not WOOLAM. The information I have is that he joined a Boys army, which must have been after 1901 because he is still at home according to the 1901 census. His parents are not on the census; his brother Frederick is the head of the house. Family accounts say he went to Dover or Wales. The Duke of York's Royal Military School have no record of him, but suggested he may have gone to RHMS.

Ian Woollams

Leanne, The children admitted to the Royal Hibernian Military School, Dublin after 1901 were in the age ragnge 10-13, in exceptional circumstances some were admitted at a younger age.  If you let me know the age he was at the time of the 1901 census, I will be able to home in to the correct year.

Peter

30 January 2006

I came upon your Hibernian Military web pages and read them with interest. I am working officially for the Office of Public Works, Dublin, in researching and writing the history of British, Commonwealth and International War Graves in the Irish Free State and Republic, 1914-present. I was greatly taken by a number of the photographs on your website. In particular I found "Last muster parade of the Royal Hibernians before leaving Phoenix Park" and the "Etching of the Royal Hibernian main building as it appeared in the late 18th century" to be of great interest. Would you be free to indicate the original sources/locations for these as I would like to get permission for their possible use as illustrations for the projected publication. I would also appreciate learning the provenance of the other photos on the site, notably the 1969 old boys gathering at the Phoenix Park bicentenary reunion of great interest. The site itself is impressive!

Fergus D'Arcy (professor emeritus, UCD, Dublin)

30 January 2006

Dr. D'Arcy, In response to your inquiry, I offer these comments:

You are free to make use of anything you see on the Royal Hibernian section of our website with the usual attribution. We jointly own copyright of everything posted. Some data and copy have been published in such publications as The Irish Sword, the Journal of The Society of Army Historical Research and ny the Genealogical Soc. of Irelandl. The "Etching of the Royal Hibernian main building as it appeared in the late 18th century" is in the public domain. I believe that it originally appeared in The Irish Times in the early 19th Century. I regret that I cannot handily pinpoint the issue in which it appeared.  The image of the "Last muster parade of the Royal Hibernians before leaving Phoenix Park" first appeared in a copy of The Hibernian, the quarterly journal of the RHMS (c 1924). Copies of The Hibernian are in the Irish National Archives, Dublin. This image, too, would be in the public domain. The Duke of York's school, Dover, inherited the last two volumes of The Hibernian journal when the RHMS amalgamated with the Duke of York's school in 1924.  Copyright ownership of all other images that appear on the site are vested in ourselves as its owners and operators unless otherwise stated in response to inquiries. For example, the 1969 gathering of old boys at the "bicentenary reunion at Phoenix Park" was provided by Mrs. Sheelagh Gray, daughter of the late Captain Harry Bloomer who organised the reunion.
I am certain that Mrs. Gray would not object to your making use of this photograph provided it carried a credit to her. I will, as a matter of courtesy, advise Mrs. Gray of your interest; also Lt. Col. Roger Say, Bursar of the Duke of York's Royal Military School. He, too, I am sure, would wish to know of your project.

Mr. Cockerill, I'm co-writing an article dealing with the links between British and colonial police forces in the mid twentieth century. One of the references is to your book on Sillitoe. It is for a journal whose house style requires the inclusion of first names of authors. Try as I might on the internet, I can't find yours anywhere so I'm writing to ask you what it is. In return, I'd be happy to send you a copy of the finished article. By the way, are you aware that a pamphlet on Sillitoe's history as Chief Constable of Chesterfield by David Beeston was recently published? It is entitled 'Back from the brink: Captain Percy Sillitoe, Chief Constable of Chesterfield, 1923-25', published by Birchwood Publications, 2005.

Chris Williams
History Department, Open University, UK.

20 January 2006

Chris, The internet is a convenient medium for tracing people. I only used my initials for by-lines. I'm known to my friends and colleagues as Art. The second name is William. I hope your article has a good reception. Regarding the Beeston article, no, I was not aware of it. Would it by chance be available on the internet or only from Birchwood Publications? Thanks for telling me.

Art

25 January 2006

Art, Thanks very much. The bibliography is now nearly complete - all I need is a copy of the Army List from the 1970s to find the forename of the Commandant of the Royal College of Defence Studies, who thoughtlessly retired at a rank just below that which would have got him into Who's Who by default. If you are ever in the UK, feel free to visit our archive in Milton Keynes. We have the personal papers of Eric St. Johnston, the archive of the Association of Chief Police Officers, and much other material dealing with UK policing in the twentieth century.

Chris

25 January 2006

Chris, re. your lament about the first name of the Cmdt. of the RCDS, it shouldn't be difficult to find it provided you have his name and initials. Most city libraries carry the annual Army Lists; so they're as plentiful as cherries on the bough. A visit to Milton Keynes might be of interest, but a meeting would be preferable. What's your particular area of history? Social, economic, educational, penal or what?

Art

Peter, This information is quite interesting as BIDGOOD was living not far from the address given on Alan BERNARD/BUTLER’s birth cert. I still can’t find Alan/Anthony in the 1891 or 1901 census, but I think I’ve found his father in the 1901 living with a different woman(!) so this may account for various anomalies. My grandmother always said he was illegitimate so it’s possible that the putative, recorded father (Alfred BUTLER) was not so. The Butlers were a family of Lightermen going back to the 1700s. I’ve traced them in the records at Guildhall, but have further work to do there. Do you know if there are any living relatives of the BIDGOODS as they may have some relevant family history or papers? Or have his papers been lodged with a manuscript archive? Thanks for your help.

Kit Jackson

27 January 2006

Kit, The only suggestion left is to go to the newspaper archives and search the  Entertainment papers, perhaps in the Bands-Musicians section followed by a trek through the advertisements etc. There is also 'The Hiss & Boo Company', an eclectic collection of Music hall singers etc. There could be a connection and he is most helpful. He has a web site, so should prove easy to contact. There is also Cockerill's site at URL  http://www.achart.ca/york/bidgood.html. There are a couple of references that may prove useful. The only other authority I know of is a Dutchman, Van Dinteren, who did correspond with relatives in New Zealand, but I was not privy to that conversation. His research was published in Holland, and as my Dutch vocabulary is limited to Amsterdam ... I don't think that I am able to help you any more,

Peter