Army schoolmasters
Canadian Expeditionary Force
Duke of York's Royal Military School
Royal Hibernian Military School
Royal Hospital School
Royal Military Asylum
Temperance medals
Thomas Bidgood

Mr Cockerill, I have been trying to track down my family tree and have come up against a complete full stop on my fathers side. I contacted a web site over here and Howard Clarke advised me to look at your web site and gave me a whole load of general information on the schoolmasters and your web site filled in the rest. I have been to the PRO at Kew but could not find any information at all. The only information I have are that my dad's great grand father was called Alfred Millard and he was an "Army Schoolmaster" and he died before 1908 - this is gained from his son, Frederick Henry's, marriage certificate. From the census of 1901 Frederick was born in 1866. There are no birth records of Alfred's son and no records on the census until 1891, in fact Frederick does not seem to exist on any documentation before 1894 when his name appeared on his daughter's birth certificate. I have checked the Army, Consular as well as the main GRO index. Would you have any further records of the Army Schoolmasters where Alfred may appear? All I need is that one nugget of information to put me on the right track - age, regiment etc. Any help you can give would be so appreciated.

Carol Miltenburg

28 February 2007

Carol, Howard was correct in referring you to this site. We're presently working on the 19th Century records of the Corps of Army Schoolmasters and earlier. I am referring your inquiry to my colleague, Peter Goble, who is researching the records and registers of the Normal School, Chelsea, the institution for teacher training. His information is reliable. He may or may not yet have a lead on Alfred Millard, but I'll leave that for him to answer.

Art Cockerill

28 February 2007

Carol, Thank you for the contact, and I have to add, yours is the first that has me completely baffled. I have no trace of your great grandfather. The first question. When you check the 1881, 1891 & 1901, did you also cover the possible transcription errors or misspelling of the name MILLARD? The location of the birth of his son, may well be indicative of where the father was stationed at that time or an indication of the parish of his wife. Logic dictates that the father would have been stationed about a mile from the birth address. A check of the Regiments in that area may give a lead. His discharge papers may hold information as to which Regiment he was attached to. If positive, then the Regimental Muster Roll will be helpful. Of sources available at the National Archives, Kew 1881 census:- with the exception of

WO143/48	transcribed into a searchable data base
WO143/50	Normal School Offences 1860-1870	No entry for MILLARD
WO143/49	RMA Chelsea Normal School Register 1847-1851	No entry for MILLARD
WO143/48	Normal School Letter Book 1859	Not Seen
WO143/47	Normal School Letter Book 07/1853-09/1859	No entry for MILLARD
Adjutant General Corps data base of Schoolmasters to 1940		No entry, but there are few entries dated before 1880

I have trawled the 1891 census for Army Schoolmasters, no MILLARDS; Equally so for the 18811881 census. There are over 100 Alfred MILLARDS I am at a loss here. Go to the National Archives Web Site > go to Census > Select 1881 Enter Alfred MILLARD  b 1841 +5 Then select Advance Search & enter Schoolmaster. As you will have his wife's Christian name, then it is a matter of hitting each entry & comparing the data shown. Other Sources:
There are some records at the National Army Museum, but this will mean a visit, I have jet to discover the secret of their cataloguing system or their holdings. The A G C Museum have some detail, but as we are cooperating with our information, it is doubtful that they have more was sent to me six months ago. On the other hand, he may well have enlisted as a qualified schoolmaster, and it is also possible that he may have an entry in the WO143/48 the letter book of 1860. All I can add is that I have the name in my Must Find file, and should I discover any other detail, I will contact you. All I ask is that you let me have the details on the birth certificate, Mother's name, address, & where the certificate was issued.

Peter

1 March 2007

Peter, Thank you so much for your e mail. To give you the run down on my hunt for Alfred. My dads family had been a nightmare! I started family treeing about 6 - 7 years ago full of high hopes. My mum's family no problem easily back to 1750's. My partner's family - no problem (apart from a glitch over an unexpected illegitimate birth!). So this is frustrating beyond belief. I will start from Alfred's son Frederick Henry. It took 5 years to get a marriage certificate as he married in 1908, 2 years after his last son (my granddad) was born. Frederick's first daughter was born in 1894, he and his wife Fanny (Snatt) lived as married in West Norwood, she even appearing as Fanny Millard on the census in 1901. Just as an aside she previously appears on the 1891 census as Fanny Snott - as if she didn't have enough problems with Snatt! Interestingly they sneaked off to Croydon to get married - giving what can only be an accommodation address as their address. The census in 1901 shows Frederick as having been born in 1866 in West Norwood. He was a painter. There may be an entry in the 1891 census for a Frederick H Millard who is a painter but he was born in Birmingham. There is a birth record for a Frederick Henry Millard born in Birmingham but he was about 4 or 5 years younger and his dad wasn't an Alfred.  There do not seem to be any other Millards in West Norwood  at the time. There is no trace of my Frederick's birth records anywhere. I have tried the normal GRO index, consular, army and births at sea etc. I have done all the obvious misspellings - Millar, Hillard, Millward etc. I can imagine him being a typo on one document but not on all of them. It is from the marriage certificate that I have got Alfred's name. He is shown as deceased and his occupation is "Army Schoolmaster". The only other vague clue may be that Frederick's son Stanley joined the 5th Battalion, Wiltshire Regiment in WW1. He was killed in the marshes near Basra in Iraq (what changes?) in 1916. I could not work out why someone born and brought up in West Norwood should join the Wiltshire Regiment. I subscribe to Ancestry.co.uk so have access to the census' back to 1841. I have checked all the Alfreds and Fredericks I can find but none fit the bill. I am beginning to think that maybe Frederick was living some sort of double life. I can't see any reason for Frederick and Fanny not marrying previously either. The Birmingham Frederick Henry married in Hendon in 1903 or so - that is not so far from West Norwood. Sorry - this e mail looks like War and Peace. Thank you for the time you have spent on this - it is really appreciated. It has also been very useful to me as a negative answer is useful as a positive one

Carol Miltenburg

1 March 2007

Carol, Thanks for the response and additional detail. I have slotted or will slot into the holding file. I had guestimated that your Alfred had been born circa 1841, making him 25 when his son was born. As I stated in my notes, if he had applied to the RMA for a place as a monitor on the road to becoming a schoolmaster. then the timetable would have been Monitor two years Two years out & about as an assistant Schoolmaster with either a Regiment or Garrison Return to the RMA for two years further training, and then qualifying as a schoolmaster. The record I have, a letter book, forms the basis of the data base, however it becomes apparent that many names and letters are missing. In theory, if he attended between 1847 & 1870, I should have found him. Their is a but. There are about 5,000 lines of data re the students defaulter book. Many for the same student, being a report on their minor misdemeanours', Late for parade, dirty or untidy, spitting over the banister at the Sgt Major. The punishments varied from up to 7 days confined to barracks to extra drill parades. The problem is there were some students who never stepped out of line; he could be one of those. Nobody passes through life without leaving a foot print. The only place left to search is at the National Archives, in the attestation papers of  Alfred MILLARD. Normally it is necessary to have his army number, but, the Corps of Schoolmasters was quite small, less than 350 in 1870. If he did attend the RMA as a Monitor, or Student then he will have enlisted at least twice. Once as an Assistant Schoolmaster and then again as a Schoolmaster, so twice the opportunity for a hit. I will continue to investigate as and when I can, for it is obvious that there are other researchers with similar problems due to the paucity of data re the CASM. Thank you for the smile re Miss Snott. She is luckier than poor Uriah, who shall be known as Urinal for eternity.

Peter

Good morning, I wonder whether you might have any record on an Albert Edward Reynolds born 20.08.1880  Bristol who might have attended your school before service in the RN.  
Other schools he is noted as having attended include the Royal Hibernian Military School,
the Queen Victoria School, an Industrial School under Home Office or Local Government Board. Any information or suggestions for further research will be much appreciated,

Chris Woods (retired mariner)

25 March 2007

Chris, I do not believe your relative was not at the any of the schools mentioned in your mail. Attached, a copy that part of a set of attestation papers, showing the schools in the order you describe. To have attended, the recruiting officer must have indicated the school and also signed the box on the right.
It is a statistical marker. A count of the No. of boys who enlisted at the age of 14. As the Queen Victoria School did not open until 1909, then his enlistment must have been at 29 plus at on the outbreak of War in 1914. Too old to be classed as a boy. A check of the 1891 census, will establish the possible location of the school he attended. I have checked both the RMA and the RMA ledger for the period 1890-1900, there are no entries for An Albert  Edward REYNOLDS

Peter Goble

25 March 2007

Peter, Thank you for your swift reply. How very interesting. I'm rather like a piggy in the middle. The request for information about A. E. Reynolds comes from a serving Canadian military gentleman, Floyd Low, who also runs the 54th. Batt. web site www.54thbattalioncef.ca/ and he is intrigued to find out more about their C.E.F RSMs. He writes, I've been curious about who the Regimental Sgt Majors were for the 54th Bn. They were all Brits with former service but the 1st one was 13 years Royal Navy Military Police - sailed the China Station!)  He (Floyd) just about did the whole war until a sniper winged him and back to Blighty with his Blighty for him! He sent me a copy of Reynolds C.E.F. Attestation Paper plus a copy of the attached pre-1914,  which bares a marked resemblance to your note,  with added hand written info. below.  Floyd,  in Canada,  has been a great help to me in the past researching my own ancestor's military careers,  in the trenches in WW1 and on into Mesopotamia. and the Indian army,  and in turn I've been able to help him in some small way from this side of the Pond - mainly nautical research which is more my scene than army research,  being a retired mariner (Capt. M.N.) and with salty ancestors. So,  your reply is most interesting. May I ask to which Attestation papers you are referring to - Royal Navy or the Canadian Expeditionary Force of 1915?

I'm not certain where Floyd got the RN Military Police aspect from,  all I could see on his CEF Papers was '13 years, 7 months RN  6th D.C.O.R.' (no idea what the latter is), and the handwritten comments on my first attachment. My own interpretation was that he had risen P.O. with the R.N. and seems to have attended (?) 3 gunnery courses,  and that he served in the South African and China Sea stations. If he had attended the schools as a boy then presumably it would have been in the 1890s. Could he have later been an instructor? To date I don't know when he arrived in Canada but he appears that he may have served with the 62nd. (Canadian) militia prior to jointing the C.E.F. although as some of these militia were not permitted to travel abroad this may have accounted for his transfer.  Of course,  there is a pencil line through this typed remark at the bottom his C.E.F. papers. Although born in Bristol,  is possible returning to settle in Kent is interesting,  although the list of schools indicates he (or his parents) moved around quite a bit. It's a mystery,  and I very much appreciate your checking your records for us,

Chris

25 March 2007

Chris, A mystery, they sharpen the mind in trying to establish the truth hidden in ancient documents. My first observation is that the note containing the "Educated at "etc, is on note paper, it seems to me to be typewritten, and  appears to have been white with blue lines. Had this been a part of a Military attestation paper, then no lines and the paper tinged brown with age. From the squared up image, it can be seen that it is type written, & not parallel with the existing line of. Capital letters, these are normally 5 points to the small of 3. As  indicated by the last letter l losing almost 1/2 of its height. Had this been part of a  printed form, than all would have been parallel. We shall have to go back to basics. The criteria for admission to either of the two then military schools was

1. The father must have been a regular soldier of good character and have served more that 4 years or died whilst on service
2. The child's must have been born in wedlock.
3. The child must have been christened.
4. Selection criteria also included. 1: Orphan; 2: Father Deceased; 3: Mother Deceased; 4: On foreign Service.

At the RHMS, the commissioners did lean a little to those Children from the Irish Regiments or Regiments that had been posted to Ireland. From the boy's birth certificate, you should find the mother and the father's names,  also his occupation. This will establish if he was entitled to be admitted. As the boy could have been born before his father enlisted, then a check of the 1881 census and the 1891 census will also indicate the father's occupation and prove or not his entitlement. Not forgetting his parents marriage certificate. There is a series of ledgers at the National Archives Kew, covering the Commissioners Minutes. All applications for admission were sanctioned by them. The same applies to ledgers at the National Army Museum. They go one better, ledgers of boys refused admission. I do have a copy of the ledgers for the relevant years, boys were normally admitted from 10 to 12, therefore possible dates of admission are between 1890-1893. As this parameter covers the 1891 census for Chelsea, I have checked, his name does not appear. As the census for Dublin was destroyed, I have no way of finding confirmation. However, there is not an entry for an Albert Edward REYNOLDS that falls with in the date range, or within the ledgers of either school. I would like to know the outcome of your investigation so please inform.

Peter

I am writing to you about my relative Frederick George Crossman born 1891 to parents Walter & Eliza Crossman from Huish Episcopi, Somerset. I have a copy of Frederick's WW1 War Record, which states that he attended the Duke of York's Royal Military School and the Royal Hibernian Military School (Industrial School Under Home Office or Local Government Board). After this Frederick enlisted as Private 8690 F Crossman in the Devonshire Regiment stating his profession as a Tailor. Whilst in the army he built up quite a bad reputation with several punishments for not cleaning his rifle and finally being discharged from the army for stealing a bicycle, so I suspect he was sent away to school for misbehaving. Fred is also listed as claming for a child of which I have no name at the moment, could this child have been taken in at the schools? Frederick rejoined the army for WW1, enlisting in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers until he was invalided home due to illness from climatic conditions in 1918. I have searched for his name on the web site but he his not listed. Which would be the best way to find out about his time at the schools.
 
Jean Crossman

28 February 2007

Jean, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I believe you are mistaken in reading your relative's war records as indicating he attended the Duke of York's School and the Royal Hibernian Military School. We have many inquiries in which the same misconception occurs. In case I might be mistaken, I'm passing your inquiry to my colleague Peter Goble, who will explain why I believe you are mistaken. It is possible, of course, that I am wrong, but I'll leave it to Peter to check the registers. If he has not record of attendance, he might be able to point you in the right direction for getting the answers you're looking for.

Art C

28 February 2007

Jean, Sadly, I have to agree with Art Cockerill. I have cross checked the ledgers for the RMA & the RHMS. The name CROSSLEY does not appear in either for the years 1840 to 1922. What you have, is a statistical marker in the record you have. The concept being, if the soldier was educated at either of the options shown, The RMA, The RHMS, an Industrial School or Local Board. Then a YES or he LOCATION of the establishment would have been entered. You will need to check his attestation form, completed at the Recruiting Office, this too has an Educated at RMA or RHMS, again this has to be noted and the recruiting officer has to sign this statement. See Educated at .PDF. this too is a statistical marker. Had your relative been admitted to either establishment, the age of admission was between 10 & 12. A check of the 1901 census will indicate just where he was at that time. The Census for the RMA at  www.rma-searcher.co.uk/RPDF/RMACEN/CENSUS%201901.pdf. No CROSSMAN entries were found.

Peter Goble

7 March 2007

Mr. Cockerill, I came across your site for The Duke of York's Military School when looking for information about my Grandfather who attended the school sometime in the early 1900's I think, and I wonder if you can help me? I am trying to trace my grandfather's family and have been told by my mother that my father's father went to the school in Kent. My Grandfather was Frederick Alick Snow SMITH.  His father was Frederick (Alick?) Smith and was at one time possibly in the  RAOC (firstly as a driver) and at the time of his death a Sgt.  I don't know exact details which Is why I hope you might help me. My grandfather came from Aldershot, Hants -  he lived at 1, Wellington Terrace, Aldershot, Hampshire at the time of his birth and I guess his enlistment into the school.  His mother sent him to the school when her husband died at age 38 we think. I am trying to find out more about my grandfather's family - his mother and father - as there are no records left and eventually my grandfather enlisted in the army at age 15 or 16 and fought at the Somme I think.  He married Ivy Williams in about 1924 and went to India where he eventually became a Major - he was also an acting Lt. Colonel before returning to the UK in about 1947.  He fought in WW2 in the Desert in Africa as well. Are you able to look at school records and tell me anything at all about Frederick Alick Snow Smith?  He had about 4 brothers and a sister I think. I am sorry to trouble you out of the blue but no-one has any info re him mainly because of his having lived in India and served in the army there...my father died 20 years ago and told us little of his family, his father and mother having separated and divorced in India when he was very young. If you cannot help me but know who can I would appreciate it if you could forward this to them or give me some pointers as to where I can contact someone to help me.  thanks in anticipation.

Jane Risdon (Mrs)

7 March 2007

Jane, Thank you for your inquiry, which I am passing to my colleague Peter Goble who is very familiar with the registers of the Duke of York's School and will be able to help you with advice if not direct information on your grandfather. This explains why I have left your message as written. I expect you will hear from him shortly.

Art

19 March 2007

Sir, In the course of my research into family history I have discovered a brother of my maternal grandmother who no one in the family seems to have heard of.  Francis Henry Holland born 1889 Aldershot, to Annie & Henry/Harry Holland who was a Staff Sgt Major, ASC on the 1891 census. Henry/Harry died in 1898 and Francis is no longer with his widowed mother and siblings on the 1901 census. But I believe it to be he who is on the 1901 census aged 12 at The Military Asylum, Chelsea. A member of my family has recently come across a 'badge' which I have not yet seen. She thought it might be helpful to my research and describes it as; A metal badge. Inscribed; SSM F. Holland 1926 sergt's mess 44th HCDT RASC  services to unit. This is a definite link for me. 

A helpful member of Ancestry.com put me on to your website and I am finding it fascinating. I have looked at the wonderful photographs in the album of the 1901 centenary page and wondered if Francis is pictured there somewhere?   He also found some info about Francis Holland, assuming it is the same person, & related;  Holland, Francis H Corps/Regiment Army Service Corps No S/21067 Rank Corporal, finished the war as Warrant Transport Officer Class 1. This is all I know about him and I know very little about his father. Any information on either Francis or his father would be appreciated. Annie and Henry/Harry had  6 children, Francis was 1 of 2 boys, the other being William born 1893. At what age would a child be accepted into the asylum, why did Francis go there and not William who would have been 5 at the time of his fathers death? Forgive my ignorant questions, I only started my research last Sept with very little to go on. I look forward to reading more thoroughly the information on your website, meanwhile hope you can help in some way with my queries.

Bernadette Mahoney

19 March 2007

Bernadette, Thank you for your inquiry. Your questions are not in the least ignorant; they are most interesting. I have referred your inquiry to my colleague, Peter Goble, who has transcribed the admission registers of the Duke of York's School and is thoroughly familiar with them. He will advise you. Because we have a considerable number of inquiries from correspondents seeking info. on their forebears, this might take a little while. Peter will however answer you as soon as he is able. Meanwhile, you might wish to explore his web site at URL http://www.rma-searcher.co.uk/Chelsea/Wanted.htm which has images of the companies of the Duke of York's School in 1902. Visitors who recognize a relative or relatives in one or more of these photographs are invited to contact us.

Art Cockerill

Hello, I am trying to locate information about my grandfather, Edward Chevis Chant and my Great Grand Father, Henry Edward Chant. (Edwards father). According to his birth certificate, Edward was born at the Royal Hibernian Military School on 3rd September 1903. Henry Edward Chant was a Pioneer with RHMS at the time.  Edwards mother was Sarah Chant (nee Chevis).  I appreciate any advice or information you can provide to me. Thank you for your time.

Annie Geoghegan
Australia

Annie,  It is possible that Edward attended the RHMS, the 1911 census of the RHMS  shows that his father was there in 1911, employed as a Librarian. Detail extracted from "The history of the RHMS, Dublin". Geo Oreille 20: Henry CHANT Librarian; (Wife) Sarah; (children) Violet 11; Harry 10; Edward  7; Gladys  6; Evelyn 3; Sarah 2. The boy's names are together with their family, and not within the listing of the RHMS Boys. The boys are shown as scholars. There is a note attached to an Old Boy Association report, re a female Hibernian, the daughter of a member of staff, in the early part of the 20th century. I have checked the ledger for her, there is no entry to be found. Due to the loss of their archived material in 1942, there is no way of proving that either or both sons attended the RHMS. Another theory is perhaps they were taught within the RHMS, but as day pupils going home after classes. Again, extremely difficult to prove.

Of the ledgers I have access to: WO143/27 Boys admissions 1840-1919. This is a small ledger with minimal detail and many of the entries have been missed out. There are no CHANTS entered WO143/79  Boys Admissions 1877-1907. Full details of all boys, but no CHANT Entries. If Edward had been admitted, then theoretically he should have arrived between 1913-1915. The admissions ledger for this period was destroyed in 1942. A discharge ledger, WO143/26, 1907 to 1958 has Name, Father's Regiment, date of discharge and where sent  to. This does not have an entry for CHANT. If I am wrong in my assumptions, Art Cockerill will soon put me right.

Peter

20 March 2007

Art, Thank you for that terrific information.  I am just about to contact George O'Reilly to see if I can get the History of the RHMS. You and Peter provide an invaluable service and your comprehensive understanding of the RHMS should be commended. It seems that I have been trying for ever to get any snippet of information on my grandfather and great grandfather and last night I learned more about them both than I have in my entire life - through your two emails.  thank you so much.

Annie Geoghegan

21 March 2007

Annie, I'm pleased you thought the contact worthwhile. Attached is a review of the History of the Dublin Hibernian School, published in the Family Tree magazine. It gives all the info you need to search the web for a secondhand copy if you don't succeed with George O'Reilly. You might find copies on ABE Books.com or some other book site. I was leafing through it a short time ago and see that all eight of you Chant forebears are listed under the 1911 census, in confirmation of Peter's info. Four of them (two daughters, Violet and Gladys – and two sons Harry and Edward) are identified as scholars, which suggests they all were at school in the RHMS.

Art

[Editing note: the RHS, opened in 1712, is to the Royal Navy what the Duke of York's is to the Army.]

Art, Thanks for passing that on. Please thank the Peters C and G for me! I recently acquired a copy of your excellent The Charity of Mars, which I am currently working my way through, and this indicated some other possibilities for RM [Royal Marines] orphan schools, so the research continues! Last weekend I went to one of our (RHSA) meetings to discuss plans for our tercentenary in 2012, and to call for volunteers who live near Kew. I now await a response, but am not holding my breath as volunteering was not high on the agenda when I was at RHS! How was it at DYRMS?

Bernard

9 March 2007

Bernard, Lousy is the only word for it. Volunteers are as rare as hen's teeth. Questionnaires are answered even more rarely. Come Grand Day they say – the annual day of prize-giving and trooping the colour - visitors in regulation blue blazer, school ties and polished shoes will strut among the dignitaries genuflecting first to one side, then to the other, tugging forelocks when clearly in danger of colliding with persons of higher rank, or in the perilous vicinity of royalty, and the tinkle of beribboned chests is heard, be it ever so faintly across the manicured lawns and mown playing fields, and uniformed boys and girls will open doors at the slightest behest and stand in awe of women of awesome age who float by in Aubrey Beardsley-like flowing, diaphanous summer gowns and weevil-infested biscuit hats of raffia construction with floppy brims or men of ancient lineage who began life as barrack rats now metamorphosed into elegant gents with clipped mustachios, will proudly display the miniatures clipped tightly to their breasts, and drag their OBEs and MBEs behind them like so much extra baggage. As for volunteering, one might expect vacancies on the board of the executive to be filled with alacrity provided nothing is expected beyond attendance at the twice-annual meetings. On the other hand, there are those rare birds who rise above the flock and fetch and carry with the determination of carrier pigeons in times of war. They are rare and sterling birds indeed, so if you find them, ring them securely and keep them close by you, caged, well fed and poorly shod.

The year 2008 is the centenary year of the Old Boys Association (there being no recognition yet of daughters of soldiers who are there in equal numbers) for which plans – what plans? – are being formulated. It's a perception of some that a magnificent dinner will be arranged for the executive in company with the Headmaster & wife, Bursar & wife, Chairman of the Board of Commissioners and other important personages selected for the occasion, the whole shebang to be funded from the coffers of the association. Meanwhile, the Bolshie crew downunder will hold their own centenary in a pub close to Perth or in downtown Melbourne or in Sidney out of the way behind the opera house – and those blokes do volunteer like their dad's before them. Let's hope descendents of the King's German Legion are better organised.

Art

Art, Thanks for the copy of your reply to Bernard. It made my day. I nearly fell of my chair with laughter, one of those draughtsmen stool things. More dangerous than some. My mind immediately went back to Sovereign's Parade at the RMA Sandhurst in the 50s. I had a vision of yourself sitting amongst the Academics on the side of the Parade, Attired as per part 1 Orders, "Academic Staff will wear Best Day Suit, Cap and Gown", In those days I believe Richard Homes was a Junior Reader. You would be looking out at the whole panoply. The Adjutant, on his horse, which has recently been whisked off to Aldershot, by the Cadets from OCS Mons - I was on Guard - when the Daily Mirror rang in the middle of the night enquiring about it. Sitting there you would have seen the WOI "Schoolie" in some supernumerary position with the Academy Chief Clerk (WOI) RASC  Attired as per Part 1 Orders. Service Dress, Sam Brown, Sword, Gloves, Medals (court style). It was just unfortunate that these two gentlemen did not fit the Brigade of Guards image. Schoolie was a tall mustachioed, elderly "Mr Chips" with an expression of "what am I doing here". The Chief Clerk was a short rotund person who had recently been depicted by cartoon on the back of the Office door in a squashed hat, leaning on the hilt of his sword, to keep the wheel at the bottom off the ground, glaring round for the Academy RSM, who had put his name down for the Parade. Me, I was hidden away trying desperately trying to remove an minute ink spot from the bottom corner of my battle dress pocket. The spot had been noted earlier in the Staff Parade, by the Assistant Adjutant. To be duly trumpeted three time by an RSM, CSM & Sgt. "Corporal Cole - Filthy Battledress, SIR!" this was followed by a meek little Corporal touching my shoulder "what is your name please, Corporal".

Peter C

10 March 2007

Bernard, Okay! Let's get down to important issues – education is on my mind at the moment. Peter and I are working on a new article for the Journal of Army Historical Research on the origin of army education. It takes us back to the late 18th Century and early 19th. We know, and have a record, of teaching in the early 1790s in the Hibernian School, Dublin, well before the Royal Military Asylum began life in 1803. After that, teaching was by the monitorial methods of Joseph Lancaster and Andrew Bell until the Normal School for teaching army schoolmasters opened in 1846. After that there's a plethora of information, but little enough before. There must have been a system of teaching in the RHS before 1800. What can you tell me about the system used? Was it monitorial teaching? What trades were taught before the turn of the century? Did the RHS include girls? If so, in what proportion to boys? Also, what source references are available re. RHS education? Do you know of any authorities in this field I can contact? Thanks,

13 March 2007

Art, Sorry to take so long to respond! RHS’s origins like those of DYRMS reside in a number of different institutions, the records for some of which are hard to come by. Greenwich (Royal) Hospital opened its school in 1712 and it had, as I understand it, although I shall be reviewing all of this, two components, one part was devoted to children under the age of 14 (5-13, but with exceptions depending on circumstances), and the Upper School for boys aged 14-17 (roughly) that gave education in mathematics, navigation and nautical astronomy. The Upper School was highly successful and became the world’s premier school of navigation, and its ethos was copied throughout the colonies (Canada, Australia, and I suspect US). These two schools places were assigned by patronage to RN and Merchant service officers. In 1798, as an entirely separate development a school, The British National Endeavour, was begun funded by public subscription at the instigation of a Mr Thompson. It was for orphans of sailors and marines of petty officer rank or below of the RN. Not long after there was a scandal and Mr Thompson was jailed for embezzlement. The RN officers arranged a whip round to keep the school going, and Lord Nelson became a patron. With the great sea battles against Napoleonic forces, and especially the great victory of Trafalgar, the school gained Royal Patronage, and was renamed the Royal Naval Asylum (I suspect to match the name Royal Military Asylum). The BNE School began at Paddington Green, but moved to Greenwich, right next to the G(R)H school, and they operated independently side by side until 1821, when the RNA was put into the control of G(R)H. The RNA and the “junior” school of G(R)H were merged to form the Lower School of G(R)H School, and the Upper school remained intact and still teaching navigators. The Lower School is described as adhering to "Dr Bell's" system, whilst the Upper School presumably stuck to its tried and tested curriculum and techniques. I suggest that, given my very rapid introduction, you now read "Education and Empire" by David McLean, British Academic Press, 1998. It is about education at G(R)HS, and a major problem of the first half of the 19th C. I have problems with it which I won't bore you with, but it does give a background to education at that time. I attach my notes on the chronology of RHS. Please note that these are constantly evolving, and are really an aide-memoire for me.

Bernard

PS I wonder whether the Goldscmid's made any donations to DYRMS or its predecessors. It amuses me that RHS likes to say that it is a Christian

Sir, I live in Sydney Australia and whilst researching my family came across a list on the net of children admitted to the above school four of which were the sons of my ancestor a John Walburn[Walbourn] and alongside each name it gave the regiment as 7th Regiment of Foot. Royal Fusiliers. These admission Ledgers were compiled by a Peter Goble and a database on CD was available. I emailed Mr Goble but my email was returned as undeliverable. As your name also appeared on this site regarding research you had done on the Military schools I am writing to you to ascertain any information you might be able to give me regarding the circumstances that these young boys aged from 6 years to 11 years might have been sent to this school ,i.e. does it mean their father was injured or killed in action etc. I have contacted the UK Museum for this regt. with no success and the only on line record I was able to find in UK Archives was for army service of one of the children, Samuel from 1821. Any general information you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Rosemary Bray

19 March 2007

Rosemary, you have come to the right place for information on your forebear and his sons. Peter Goble is my colleague and has a stock of CDs on the data base of the Royal Military Asylum. I am fwdg your inquiry to Peter who will answer you directly and from whom of course a CD is available. You might also be interested in The Charity of Mars book, which is a history of the old Royal Military Asylum. I am most interested to have your inquiry of forebears who go back to 1808-21 and I'm sure Peter will be too. However, I say no more for the moment, but await what Peter has to report.

Art C

19 March 2007

Rosemary, I have all four, as you have confirmed the correct name I have adjusted it to the correct spelling, with the Regiment and parents being the same, I defer to your superior knowledge. Attached is all the detail I have, displayed at walburn.pdf. The RMA rules explain the meanings of the field headings. It is interesting to note, that for the first two, both parents were alive, for the last two, both are shown as deceased. Their admission on the same date, the 8th Jan 1817 emphasises that point. Charles was obviously not very happy at the RMA, and was returned to his parents in 1810. Yours is a most interesting search, for you are the first before 1810. Also the youngest two may have been at the RMA Asylum on the Isle of Wight. This department closed in 1825, and the children moved to the Female branch at Southampton. Your next step must be to write to:- Lt. Col R Say Bursar, The Duke of York's School. Dover, CT15 5EQ requesting information re your relatives. Give all the detail you have, names, ages on admission, parents and their father's Regiment, not forgetting to state your relationship. I am hopeful, but can't guarantee that their records are still extant, but we shall never know unless you try. We will be pleased to hear of your success quest via the Duke of Yorks School. If you require any further details or clarification of any points raised, we will be pleased to be of help Regards

Peter Goble

26 March 2007

Good morning from the US! I have looked for records for an ancestor for almost 20 years, including a visit to the [National] Archives in London. I discovered that our orphaned ancestor was an Army orphan. (His father was a gunner on a ship so we incorrectly assumed he was in the Royal Navy). Yesterday, I found our "boy" and his sister at your site! THANK YOU so much for posting this. I wonder if it is possible to obtain copies of any, and all, records for William and Mary Ann Jameson, and what that procedure would be? I am anxious to know more about two children whose father was in Royal Artillery Regiment. (I found them listed as possible siblings on that database too.) William Jemeson was admitted in 1831, at age 8, and discharged in 1837. Nothing is in the column as to what happened to him when he left. However, we know that he went to Canada with the British army at age 14 as a bugler. He stayed in N. America, married and was commissioned in the U.S. Civil War. He was born in the Ionian Islands during his father's service there - a world traveler in mid 1800s! A fascinating man. Mary Ann Jameson is listed as entry 1574. I don't believe that there would be any further information on the census for her, but would there be admittance papers of some kind? She was admitted 9 November 1826. I believe both of the parents died some time in the following years (dates unknown). Any assistance you can give would be SO appreciated!

Karen McClain, Michigan USA

26 March 2007

Karen, Attached is a PDF form for the Jameson Children. The code HO is numbered 1 to 4 and represents 1 - Father full orphan, 2 - Father deceased, 3 - Mother Deceased; & 4 - Father on foreign service. MTH is the number of months after the child's birthday. It is possible that Mary was at the RMA Southampton Branch for females and infants, opened in 1815 and closed in 1840. I don't recommend that you employ a researcher. All available information is on my web site. Your best approach for their admission documents is to write to Lt Col. R. Say, Bursar, Duke of York's School, Dover. Kent, CT15 5 EQ. Give all the detail you have - names, ages, parents, father's unit. Most importantly, state your relationship to the children. I have heard of some success back to 1835, but this is no guarantee. I feel positive re the success of your enquiry, Please lest us know the outcome.

Peter Goble

27 March 2007

Hello, I am fascinated by your site and the variety of helpful information. I have an interest in a brother and sister at the RMA. Their father was a gunner on the RHS Euraylus in the 1820s. Mary Ann and William Jameson attended the Royal Military Asylum and left when they reached 14. Ann's notations show she went to Cressbrook Mills - McConnel and Co. in Derbyshire. I cannot locate her on the 1841 census but, then, she may have married as she was 21 in that year. There is no notation after William Jameson's name, but the family story is that he went to Canada as a bugler in the Army at the time of the Papineau Rebellion. He married and moved to NY, and later became an officer in the US Civil War. William was born in Zante (Greek Isles) where his father was stationed after the Battle of Trafalgar and there married a local woman. I don't know where to go next to obtain the records at RMA, having found the siblings listed in their various databases. Are there are papers associated with, what I assume was, an indentured apprenticeship for Mary Ann Jameson at Cressbrook when she went there in 1834? Have you any other suggestions? I also need to locate the death of their father, who died while in military service about 1830-35.

Karen McClain, in Michigan

27 March 2007

Karen, I've been following your exchange with Peter Goble, who is my friend, colleague and collaborator writing the history of the military schools, so I'm well aware of your forebears Mary Ann and William Jameson. Your news that Mary Ann went to McConnel & Co. at the Cressbrook Mill is interesting. We know some of that history. The Cressbrook Historical Society was in touch with us ages ago. They published a history on the mill. I've also written about the apprentices shipped to the cotton mills of Lancashire. You can read it at CRL http://www.achart.ca/york/apprentice.html and a couple of other articles following. They're not entertaining by any means, but they are informative, based on Peter's original research. I'll contact our friends at Cressbrook and find out what they can tell me of Mary Ann. In fact, I have copies of documents from them in my files if you're interested. If you want to read background to the Asylum and the cotton apprentices you should read The Charity of Mars book, written and published for the 2003 bicentenary of the RMA. You see it at CRL http://www.achart.ca/books_militaria.htm. It includes a considerable amount on the cotton apprentices and what happened to them, more fortunate than their contemporaries in the civil population I should think. I'm interested learning of William Jameson and his civil war experience. You wouldn't happen to have any images of him, would you? I can see a wonderful story similar to others I've written on former Dukies (the Royal Military Asylum renamed in 1892). We have copies of most of the RMA records.

Art C

Reading your piece on Army Temperance medals on the net. I record metal detecting finds and have a silver medal brought in from Flaxton near York dated 1893 you say these medals were not issued until 1897. Can that be that correct? There is no doubt about the date.

Jim Halliday.

7 March 2007

Jim, An interesting find and, sure enough, there is no mistaking the year 1893 on the image you sent. However, you have misread the 1897 Temperance medal article and are mistaken in the impression that 1897 was the first year they were issued. In fact, the first year of their issue was 1808, as described in David A. Harris' interesting book on the subject, A Guide to Military Temperance Medals (Second edition). The passage quoted in the article to which you referred deals with the issue of 'First-year medals' to boys of the Royal Hibernian Military School and the Duke  of York's Royal Military School. The notice was published in the May 1897 issue of On the March, journal of the Temperance Association.

Art

I am the great grand niece of Thomas Bidgood who has featured in some of your research regarding The Duke of York's School. I am researching my family tree and wondered if you would be willing to share any information you have in relation to Thomas and his association with the school or possibly put me in contact with someone who can help.

Elaine O'Brien

13 March 2007

Elaine, All we know about your great grand uncle Thomas Bidgood is to be found on the web at URL www.achart.ca/york/bidgood.html. For what it's worth - and this isn't much because much of it is in error - I shall forward you some of the exchanges my colleague and I have had with reference to the life and times of Thomas Bidgood. I take it that you are already in touch with Don Bidgood (see the fwd exchange of messages).

Art C

13 March 2007

Elaine, I have a few snippets re Bidgood, but unfortunately the times reports, non musical, were not collected. One that comes to mind is that he arrived home one day to discover that he had been burgled. The culprit, a man with an artificial leg, was found guilty of stealing a watch etc and of hiding them in his artificial leg. Go to Bedford Virtual Library. Sign on as a new member. then log on to the Times Newspaper archive. Set the search parameter as 'BIDGOOD' and this article plus other items re Bidgood will be displayed. Hope this makes sense. I will also look through my archived material Y see if I can rediscover.

Peter

22 March 2007

Elaine, We finished the Bidgood research in 2003, but he was resurrected when we combined his Son of the Brave march with Philip Morris's Sons of the Brave canvas for the lead article of the Winter issue of the Journal of the Society of Army Historical research, Vol 84 No 340 isbn 0037 9700. I also helped a Dutch researcher, Jan van Dinteren, regarding his work. I have a copy of the research somewhere, but changing offices I temporarily lost it along with a photo your forebear's plot. This is a paupers grave. There is no memorial.

The main body of our research is to be found on the www.achart.ca web site. My contribution was to prove Thomas Bidgood was not at the RMA. A myth grew that he was a bandmaster there, but not true. His father was a plumber in Woolwich, not a soldier as required for admission to the RMA This myth no doubt stemmed from the two masterpieces: Sons of the Brave, by Philip Morris and his march Sons of the Brave. I don't think we have anything new to add.

Peter