Army children archive
Canadian boy soldiers
Child soldiers
Military education
Professor A.J. Phasey
Royal Hibernian Military School
Royal Military Asylum

Mr Cockerill, I hope this new website to be found at www.archhistory.co.uk will interest you. If so, I hope you would allow me to make a link to your own excellent website on my 'Links & Literature' page because much of the material on your site deals with subjects only touched upon on The Army Children Archive. I look forward to hearing from you.

Clare Gibson

11 November 2007

Clare; Thanks for the contact. I've been to your site and find it both intriguing, attractive and I can affirm that all children who attended the military schools, myself included, are barrack rats of one stripe or another. By all means make a link to the achart.ca site and I'll return the compliment. A site devoted to the children of army personnel is an excellent idea, for no other site I know of fills this need. I recommend that you see what Peter Goble offers at www.rma-searcher.co.uk which contains records of over 20,000 service children, boys and girls, who attended the military schools from 1803 to the present day. It is therefore an excellent source of genealogical data for those whose forebears were students at Royal Hibernian Military School and the Duke of York's Royal Military School.
     You are interested in books dealing with aspects of army children. Then you might like to read the story of boy soldiers in Sons of the Brave (1985) pub; Secker & Warburg. The book is out of print, but obtainable on the internet. The second book, The Charity of Mars (2002), a history of the Royal Military Asylum (1801-1902) was privately published for the 2004 bicentenary year of the Duke of York's School. I wish you luck with TACA site, which will fill a gap in the history of the British Army, broader and more far ranging than the sites Peter and I operate.

Art

11 November 2007

Art, Thanks for your generous response to my e-mail, for having taken the time to visit the www.archhistory.co.uk web site. I might explain why I set it up. I am a freelance writer and editor with a special interest in family history and the social side of military history. The two subjects are closely linked. Having written an introduction to researching army-children ancestors for the Practical Family History magazine in the UK, I thought the topic might be expanded into an illustrated book. I did some research to discover what information might be available for those interested in the subject. Apart from Peter's and your own work on education and the military schools there was not a lot. I therefore set up the website to give an overview of the subject with the information I'd been able to gather. With contributions from others interested in the subject my plan is to make a useful body of information as a general resource. Regrettably, I don't have much time to devote to the website, but the response I've had from the military community so far has been encouraging. Contributions will be necessary to keep the site fresh and interesting. For instance, I was tickled pink to read that your parents lived in the married quarters at Dagshai; could I cheekily prevail upon you to write a line or two one day on what it was like to live in them or about your father's regiment/service on the NW frontier?

Clare

12 November 2007

Mr Goble, You will have received copies of correspondence between me and Art Cockerill, so I'll not explain further the web site I recently set up. I write to compliment you on www.rma-searcher.co.uk and to check if you will permit me to make a link to it on TACA's 'Links & Literature' page. I haven't yet had a chance to explore your site in detail, but am  impressed by its user-friendliness, and by the huge amount of research that has clearly gone into it. 

Clare Gibson

12 November 2007

Clare,  By all means make a link to www.rma-searcher.co.uk and I'll reciprocate. You are welcome to extract data that you find useful to your research; all I require is an attribution to the source. Don't hesitate either in asking for information about the two military schools we cover. For the RHMS, there is the added information re the Height, Weight and Chest measurement of the boys from 1847 to 1907. We also have considerable data on the Corps of Army Schoolmasters, teacher training courses at the RMA from 1849 on and various records to do with the Normal School. The data is not complete, for it is obvious that's names of missing.
          The post card of Tidworth on your site brought back memories. It must be looking towards the road junction on the Tidworth Bulford Road. One turned left, and was then almost in central Tidworth. The houses were a covered entrance, a sitting room and a kitchen-scullery. As I was visiting, I can only assume there were two bedrooms; the loo was in a pimple to the rear. The Large building top centre, could be the Chapel. The open ground to the front is where the Military Hospital will be built. I will investigate to see what I can discover.

Peter

I had the pleasure of starting my military career as a boy soldier in the Canadian Forces in Sept 1944. Discharged Oct 1945. Reenlisted in the RCAF 1946, retired in 1975 to join the CSC. Wonderful life. Credit my good career to my start as a Boy Soldier. There are only three of us here in Chilliwack but many more in Vancouver. Before I say any more I would like to confirm this E Mail gets to you. Why because I took  five months Training in Victoria after leaving Saskatoon before going to Hamilton.

Art Hawkes (Major Ret.)

18 November 2007

Thanks for your note. We're of the same vintage I should think, for I enlisted in August 1943. You must have been in the CTTC. I'm surprised we haven't met before now. The CTTC had one of its reunions in Vancouver a few years ago, which I attended, organised by Brig. Yost and the CTTC old boys committee. There's an article on Canadian boy soldiers, which you'll find at URL www.achart.ca/publications/cdn_boy_soldiers.htm. You must have been in the service when the Hellyer reforms were instituted in 1967 much to everyone's dismay in the Canadian armed forces. Switching the subject, I recently had contact with Gerry Prins of Vancouver, another Canadian apprentice who might have been a little after your time, with whom I share a meal when I visit the west coast. Good to hear from you anyway. Perhaps we might arrange a reunion meal the next time I'm in the area.

Art C

I was reading your article: Child Soldiers and small weapons of mass destruction and wondered if you could help me. I am looking for statistics (or any studies) that look at how many exported firearms end up in the hands of child soldiers. Or even just any info that discusses whether or not these arms end up in the hands of child soldiers. Would you have any suggestions? Thank you very kindly.
Ana Quinta, MLIS
Political and Social Affairs Division
22 November 2007

Ana

The public address posted on the web on Child soldiers and small weapons... to which you refer was based in large part on the 2002 small arms survey by the Graduate Institute of International Studies, Geneva, published by the Oxford Univ. Press. A plethora of publications on the distribution of small arms worldwide is available on the internet. However, a source of objective information is the Institut universitaire de hautes êtudes internationales, Genève. Canadian Senator Langdon MacKenzie is an authority on child soldiers and may be a good person to contact. If you are unable to contact her through govt. services I could probably provide you with contact information. The other person who might be a help is Lt. Col. Bill Dickens, ex-Cdn Armed forces and an official with the UN, responsible for field management operations in troubled territories such as Kosovo. I'm not intimately familiar with his work, but I'm sure he could assist. He lives in the Kingston area. His contact e-mail address appears on the CC line. I hope this is of help to you.

Art C

Art, Sorry it has taken so long to reply on this. Having received the army paybook, I scanned the page of interest, as attached. The book is titled 'Soldier's Small Book' on front with name number and corps penned into cover as well. Inside cover indicates Army Form B50, 1905. I transcribed the book in the early days of my research and my naivety is showing as looking at it now perhaps I may have misread it. My assumption of a 1900 certificate is incorrect, it is more likely a 1907 date - when Herbert joined at Aldershot, possibly as part of the process to confirm his ability to read and write.  I think I originally assumed the 7 of the 1907 date was part of the signature initials.

Jeni King

26 November 207

Jeni, Thanks for the scanned page of the B50 (In my day, this was the AB64, which gave the same detail of service as the B50, which is all btw of course). I'm sorry to tell you that your forebears certificate of education was not earned that the Duke of York's School. Peter can answer this more accurately than can I, but that top line appear in every B50. If the recipient attended either the Duke of York's or the Royal Hibernian School, the fact would be so indicated and signed or initialled by the reporting officer, who would cross out the institution that did not apply. Sorry about that, but he did not attend one of the military schools. I'm sure Peter will confirm this.

Art

26 November 2007

Sara Jane,  I must confirm that the three brothers do not appear in the ledgers from 1847 to 1907. I have added all the REIDS that have attended, none seem to fit the bill. The blank birthdays are for pre 1847. On attestation papers there is a paragraph that refers to boys being educated at either the RHMS or the Duke of York’s If this is blank, then this too means that they did not attend. I have attached an image of the paragraph. If your relative was in the Army, then a check of the muster rolls of his Regiment may reveal details that you are searching for. These Rolls are kept the National Archives. Kew

Peter Goble

I discovered your website on Professor Alfred James Phasey as part of a school project for one of my sons. Alfred James Phasey, born in 1900, is my Great Uncle. His father was Reginald James Phasey, one of the sons of A.J. Phasey featured in your photograph. I am also the owner of the fourth-key euphonium that Professor Phasey invented back in the 1860s; it includes engravings from the 1800s and from the Queen's private band.  Miraculously the instrument still works and survived a devastating house fire here in San Francisco. I am trying to learn more about the instrument and my great great uncle, and your website has helped considerably.

Robert (Rip) Gerber
San Francisco, CA

14 October 2007

Rip, It is a pleasure to have your note and to learn of your connection with A.J. Phasey. Along with Henry Lazarus, the 19th Century clarinetist, Debroy Summers (the 1920s dance band leader) and Prof. Sullivan (father of Sir Arthur Sullivan), he is among the famous sons of the Duke of York's School and its predecessor institution the Royal Military Asylum. Yes, I am very well aware of Phasey's contribution to development of the euphonium. He was, apparently, a versatile musician who played a variety of wind instruments. AJ's sons were accomplished musicians too, especially the one - forget his name - who came to the States. My colleague, Peter Goble - likewise and accomplished euphonium player - will be interested to learn of your message. Good to hear from you. Any chance of getting a photograph from you of that fourth-key euphonium? What else can you tell me about it? It might be of interest to readers who visit the site.

Art Cockerill

Wendy, Long time with nothing to report to you, then out of the blue, up pops a SPARLING Catherine in 1864. Catherine SPARLIN. Laundry Servant at the Royal Hibernian Military School, Dublin .@ £6.6.0 per year with allowances of £19.18.00. She was living in at the RHMS, the allowances possibly covered Bed, Board uniform etc. She was there between the 21 February and 29 April 64, she is included in the head count as being there on the  1st March 1864, but resigned before the 21st April. She is also noted as being a Protestant. Source:- Return to an order of the Honourable The House of Commons dated 29 April 1864.  Ordered by the House of Commons, to be printed 19 May 1864 I must assume, until corrected, that she is the daughter of a soldier, and would be  approx 16. Does she fit in with any of your Sparlings?

Peter

27 November 2007

Thank you so very very much for your reply. It was Mr. Goble’s email address that gave me all the problems.   I am keeping my fingers crossed for this one.  It is my Great Grandfather William George Whitehead that I seek information on and his brothers.  I understand through the London Blitz the bulk of the records were destroyed but it’s the off chance you speak of that keeps me in hopes.  Just to point out  again Mr. Cockerill my Great Grandfather is the last Whitehead name of the four below and the others were his brothers.  If I may ask a question of you please on my Great Grandfathers Royal Artillery Papers it states he had scars to his lower back from childhood so I wonder if these scars could have been as a result of the punishment handed out by the school? Thank you once again.
 
Marion

27 November 2007

Marion, Concerning the scars on your g-grandfather’s back, I doubt if they inflicted by means of punishment at the Royal Hibernian School. Punishment were not that harsh by any standards. Boys were caned, given extra duties and made to wear the uniform coats inside out for certain offences (shunned as a turncoat), but not birched? No, not in the 1860s. To get some idea of the offences committed and the attendant punishments, go to URL www.achart.ca/york/punishment.htm. Although this article deals with the children of the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea, I’m pretty sure that those at the Hibernian School, Dublin, were similar. The military authority treated the children under its care humanely and with consideration. Peter has had problems with his system recently; they are now overcome.

Art

I am trying to trace my family tree. My mother always claimed that my great grandfather was orphaned when his parents travelling in India, died of yellow jack, leaving several sons who were put into the Duke of York's Home For Young Gentlemen, and one daughter who was kept by their grandfather the Duke of Aberdeen or Athol (neither my sister nor myself can remember which, but we know he was Scottish; how we wish we had listened to our mum). My g-grandfather joined the English Army (Royal Artillery) changed his name to (John) Smith infuriating his grandpa the Duke of ? who disinherited him" 3. "My grandfather (also John Smith born Aldershot 1839) would see the photo in the newspaper of the then Duke of ? bristle with fury and say 'that should have been me’. We should be so grateful for any advice you may be  able to give us to help us in our investigation, which to us is so interesting and
intriguing..

Hilary Moody

11 November 2007

Hilary, Thanks for the contact. Before we can begin to help you with your g-grandfather's history, if we can at all, we need to know more about him: what was his full name? about what year do you believe he was at the Duke of York's? who were the other 'several sons' by name? And to what period are you referring? Would you mind telling me whereabouts you're located? You don't have to supply your address, the region will do: the States, the Antipodes, Europe? Where? The reason is that it's unusual for someone to write of the 'English Army', which hasn't existed for the past four hundred years. I take it you mean the British Army, which is no matter as anyone can make that mistake, but it's unusual as I said. Also, it is the Duke of York's Royal Military School (I doubt it a single one of those admitted were gentlemen; little tykes by anyone's reckoning I should imagine - you'll forgive that one, too). You're g-grandfather would probably have been in the Duke of York's when it was the Royal Military Asylum (1802-1892); 1892 is the year the name was changed to the Duke of York's Royal Military School. Now that we have set matters straight, please let me have the information for which I asked and my colleague Peter Goble will check his copies of the admission registers to locate your g-granddad and his brothers.

Art C

12 November 2007

My mother's great-grandpa's name was John Smith (Murray) his name on his son's marriage cert is John Smith R.A. serjeant. deceased. This certificate is dated 16 December 1862. His son was then aged 23, in which case he himself may have been born around 1800-ish and could have been in the orphanage 1808-ish? We do not know any of the siblings names. We live in England (Cambridgeshire) the then family lived in Aldershot (barracks) Woolwich(arsenal) and Aberdeenshire. My mother most definitely referred to always to the English army "although resident in England "we are pure scots, both sides..." was the call of her grandpa. Nothing like a bit of racism to keep you going eh wot! and yes I bet there wasn't a one gent among them in that establishment! I am trying another route via military photos. Today I took 3 pics to a man who identified one as a corporal, a second as a serjeant - these two may be the same man both royal artillery - and one a colonel, not artillery. He also gave me the name of the History Archives of the Portsmouth Dockyard that may be worth contacting. Thank you for showing an interest in us; it makes it seem less of an impossible task. I look forward to hearing from you. Any advice will be most welcome.

Hilary Moody.

11 November 2007

Attached is a photo of my Great Grandfather, Herbert William Bridgen, in his Yorkie uniform. You are welcome to add it to your excellent website, should you wish. Can you can confirm his attendance at the school? He was born 26 May 1896 at Portsmouth, Hampshire. His father died 23 Jun 1903 at Brighton, West Sussex, aged 39, so I imagine Herbert was admitted between 1903 - 1908. Reading your website, there do not seem to be any attendance records at Kew for this period, but perhaps your colleague, Peter Goble, has the records, or has some other record of his stay at DYRMS. I believe he joined the Royal Horse Artillery when he left, and survived the horrors of WW1. In 1930, he was a driver in 76 Battery 9th Brigade Royal Artillery. Hope you can help or at least confirm the photo was taken at the DYRMS. Perhaps it can be dated by the background image.

11 November 2007

David, That is an excellent shot of your g-grandfather. I've asked Peter to tell you directly if we have any information on the admission registers. I expect we have. You're right about the time of his admission, which would have been when he was between the ages of 8 and 10 or even 11. He would have been among those who moved to the school's new premises in 1909 (see the photographs posted at URL www.achart.ca/york/new_start.htm for the new accommodation for the school). I've no doubt whatever that your grandfather would be in the sea of faces in the dining room.

Art

24 November 2007

Peter, I would like to thank you for your suggestion that I write to Lt. Col. R. Say of The  Duke of York's Royal Military School. I have received from him a copy of the original petition application for William which proves Benjamin died at Portsmouth in November 1827 and Mary died on passage from the West Indies in September 1827. A sad story. William was born and baptised in Ennis, Ireland in October 1824. The petition is signed by a Captain of the 25th Foot. Thank you once again for your help.

Valerie Atkins