If you are still researching this, I have a relative who was a schoolmaster in Preston, Lancs, in 1870. Am happy to forward further details. Your item on the site: rma-rhms searcher is very interesting.
Trudy Sellers
30 November 2008
Trudy, Thanks for the contact; you are at the correct address. My spam filter is a bit on the viscous side, and is still under training. I am still collecting data on schoolmasters and as yet have not been able to find a link with a researcher of the data gathered. If your relative is about 40 in 1870, then there is a great possibility that he has been found in either details of courses run at the RMA, the RMA census for 51 and 61 or the defaulters ledgers. Let me have his name and Regiment I will be only too pleased to forward details and collect any data for the master Schoolmaster database.
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Peter Goble
1 December 2008
Peter. Thanks for replying. We may be on a non-starter here. my relative was, as far as I know, NOT in the army, as such. Here are the details I have so far:
Isaac Naylor born 1841, in Begaum, India, was the son of John Naylor (born 1816, Bradford) who was in the 4th regiment (the King's Own). Isaac was noted on son William George's birth certificate, as a schoolmaster 1865, in Leitrim, Ireland (possibly with a serving regiment?), but then again, as a schoolmaster, at Preston, Fulwood Barracks in 1851. His wife, Annie, was an assistant schoolmistress. Their son, Hugh Fulwood Naylor, was born at the barracks in 1851.Both of Isaac's sons joined the army subsequently. The whole family seems to have been serving soldiers.
I was not able to dig any deeper in spite of a personal visit to the excellent museum at the regimental barracks in Preston recently. We do have further information about him being a schoolmaster in Somerset later, and the record of his death in 1895. It would be great to know if there is any evidence of Isaac's service.
Trudy Sellers
1 December 2008
Trudy, A possible hit, let me know if he is the right one and I will forward his "Criminal Record" Attachment PDF for data held.
Peter
1 December 2008
Amazing! I wouldn't be surprised if it is him! Quite how to firmly establish this, I'm not sure at present. I would be fascinated to know anything further. The civilian entry in the columns is promising - as I'm not convinced he ever joined a regiment, None of the birth certificates I have acquired for his children say other than Schoolmaster. The family certainly moved about - perhaps this will clarify and identify Isaac firmly, if any locations appear on the records. Children were born in Leitrim, Ireland, 1865, Preston Lancs, 1871, Bradford, 1873, and more at other places in Yorkshire, with the last two born in Salisbury and Wiltshire 1885. He died of consumption- so perhaps he had led a life of protest! Who knows? Thank you for your responses and help. Most intriguing.
Trudy
1 December 2008
Trudy, With the close proximity of the birth year, and him being a Schoolmaster, the odds of him not being the right person are quite low. On the birth certificate of his son, you state he is shown as a Schoolmaster, also he led a peripatetic life, obviously a soldier. There is also a George Naylor in my archive for the 1871 census, he, too, is at the Normal School under training to be a schoolmaster: Is this one yours too? George Naylorn aged 22, born Horseforth, Leeds, and was from the 87th Regt of Foot. The defaulter register shows the date of the offence and the rank of this Isaac NAYLOR. The punishment is mostly B and a number. This represents billeted up for the Number of days; the best interpretation is gated, [Confined to Barracks], not allowed to leave the premises until the No of days has been completed. Your next step is to check with the Muster Rolls at the National Archives, Kew. Also Check the medal rolls for the "Long Service & Good Conduct Medal", sometime when he had completed 18 years or when aged about 36 +- a year Please keep me informed of any developments and the day that you can nail him to the Family Tree,
Peter Goble
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8 December 2008
I do not know the Regiment to which my great grandparents were attached, but I believe they were in the military, stationed in India. Perhaps the following inform ton could help. If you have any other information I would be pleased to hear from you. My great-grandfather John Burton, a schoolteacher, was married to Susan, also a schoolteacher to Army children. My g-g-grandparents were married in India. Grandfather Frederick Arron Linden Burton was born in Bombay c1876; his brother Ferrel Stead H Burton, born in Bombay India c1881 in Guitar India - Bolan Pass c1883; Annie Burton sister born in England Kent - c1884; Ellen Burton sister born in England Kent - c1885; my g-g-grandfather John Burton was thrown from his horse and killed in India, year unknown, but assumed to be between 1884 - 1890. Susan Burton returned to England with the family and remarried. She appears in the 1891 census living with her new husband.
C.S. Stephens-Evans
8 December 2008
Christine, regrettably, I am unable to help. I have accurate details of schoolmasters trained at the RMA, Chelsea, from 1849 to 1878; also census details of trainee schoolmasters, monitors and assistant schoolmasters for census years 1851 to 1901. A percentage of these students will have been training as regimental schoolmasters. These courses were run at the RMA, Normal School, until about 1910. Other courses were then available at Aldershot, under the heading "Regimental Schoolmaster Course No 8" for example. Many schoolmasters were required in India. Some RMA trained teachers were sent there, most records as being attached to a Regiment. On my site, for example, are several images ref. the Norfolk Regimental School. I am still researching India, having discovered schoolmaster training courses were held there, but details are sparse. I have yet to find a BURTON Schoolmaster. I have entered your details into the 'Lost Schoolmaster' file. Should I discover anything I will let you know. With regard to the Regiment of your relatives as Army Schoolmasters, check the Long Service & Good Conduct Medal list held at the National Archives, if they served for 18 or more years there should be a record of an award. Once you have your forebear's regiment, you will be able to check the Regimental Muster Rolls for the years he was with them. These records are also held at Kew.
Peter Goble
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John TURNER was born in Sheffield in 1835. On 21st January 1853 at Bury he enlisted in the 4th Regiment of Foot in which he achieved the rank of corporal and served with them until 15th January 1874 when he was discharged to pension and returned to Sheffield to work again in the Steel Mills. After a few years - I am awaiting delivery of a copy of his Attestation Papers - he moved south to Chichester where his in-laws were living and enlisted into the Militia in 3rd Royal Sussex. The 1881 and 1891 censuses and a number of birth and marriages certificates of his children show him as a Bugler and Drummer in the Militia. The 1891 census shows him as living with his family in the Chichester Barracks. In 1895, when he was 60 years old, he had moved to Portsmouth and is described no longer as in the militia, but as an army pensioner. He died in Sep 1900 in Portsmouth.
There are a number of questions that I hope you can answer about the Militia in England at that time.
1. I understood that the Militia was somewhat similar to the Territorials i.e. a voluntary part time body. Was it more than that?
2. That their duties were to train a reserve body for the regular battalions and to become active if the country was invaded. Was it more than that? However I understand that the 3rd Sussex were mobilised and fought in South Africa.
3. What would be the duties of a Bugler and /or Drummer? Is one a superior rank to the other?
4. Quoting the Militia as his occupation suggests that it was a full time or at least a paid position. Would that be so?
5. In 1891 he and his family were living in barracks. Would they have been on the strength? Was there any significance in his living-in, a change in duties perhaps? In 1881, 1882 and 1885 he was living with his family off barracks.
6. In 1895 he no longer quoted the Militia as his occupation. Was there a mandatory retirement age of 60?
On another matter, John's son-in-law, who had also served in the 4th Foot achieving the rank of sergeant, gave his address and occupation on his marriage certificate in 1888 as Army pensioner living at the Drill Hall, Portsmouth. Did Drill Halls have permanent accommodation or just provision for a brief visit? I would appreciate any information that you can give or any suggestion of sources of information.
David Parker
Toronto
29 December 2008
David, I'm afraid that John Draper has not referred you to an entirely reliable source. My main interest centres on the history of boy soldiers (in the British and Canadian armies and the military schools). Nevertheless, I'll do my best to answer your questions as I understand the subject and, perhaps, help with suggestions. Your best source for information on John Turner of the 4th Foot is the National Archives site, which has extensive information on unit muster rolls and superb advice for anyone searching genealogical information.
As I understand them, militia units were formed as part-time military formations for defence of the area in which they were raised and could not be moved outside that area. A Fencible unit, however, was a militia unit that could be moved to any area of the realm, but could not be sent overseas. Both militia and Fencible units were voluntary organisations and, of course, part time. They were, however, and as you surmised, attached to regular units such as the Royal Sussex Regiment. The 3rd Batt. of the Sussex Regiment did see service during the Anglo-Boer War, but not the militia element - unless militiamen were persuaded to transfer to the regulars. They did so in droves during the Anglo-French war (1793-1815) and may have done for the war in South Africa, but I have no knowledge of the details.
A soldier on the reserve was a regular soldier who had done his regular attestation service, 'with the colours', but yet had an agreed number of years to fulfill as a civilian on the reserve. A reserve soldier could be called up for regular service in a national emergency. In my day (1943) we signed attestation papers to serve seven years with the colours (full-time military service) and five years with the reserve. [I had a younger brother on the reserve, called up for the Suez Crisis in 1956, then released to serve the balance of his reserve time when the crisis was over.]
Buglers and drummers were of the same rank. Their duties, however, were essentially the same - at least, they were when drummers tapped out orders when regiments fought in line. Later, drummers were part of military bands. Buglers sounded standard calls during a soldier's day: reveille, fall-in, taps and last post etc.
I don't believe 'being a militiaman' could be regarded as a full-time occupation, nor paid, except the usual stipend when in training (two weeks annually at the most). It was certainly not a paid position. Drill halls were another matter altogether. They had residential accommodation {I stayed with a fellow soldier's family in 1943 in the Christchurch drill hall of the Hampshire Regiment, so can testify to this fact. [Drill halls were military buildings, usually the meeting place for militia units. They could serve other purposes, too.]
I'm a member of a loop interested in military history, so I'll copy the loop and if anyone has a contrary opinion to any I've expressed I can be sure that one or more will respond.
Art Cockerill
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royal crimea patriotic asylum
30 November 2008 |
I came across your site this morning and shall spend many a happy hour browsing through it. I should be grateful, however, if you could help me make contact with one of your correspondents, Linda Pygiel, who was researching the Royal Victoria Patriotic Asylum in 2005. I currently work in the building and am writing a history of the building. I may have information of interest to Linda and hope that she might be able to help me too. I am happy for you to pass on my contact details.
Simon McNeill-Ritchie
5 December 2008
Simon, my apologies for this delayed response to your enquiry. I'm recently out of dock and trying like the Dickens to answer my mail. Linda Pygiel's last contact info I have is: [contact info provided]. However, as Linda was a PhD candidate when she was in touch with me a couple of years ago, she may no longer be in Toronto. You might also wish to contact a colleague of mine who could have additional information on the Royal Crimea Patriotic Fund. Howard Clarke is writing a history of the Royal Hibernian Military School, Phoenix Park, Dublin (1769-1924), but has ranged far and wide in his research and might have come across papers dealing with the RCPV.
Art
6 December 2008
Art, Yes, I discovered her e-mail was no longer active, so I thought I'd try her phone - allowing for the fact of course that we are somewhere between 5 and 8 hours ahead! The building does indeed have a fascinating history. It was paid for and administered by the Fund. The foundation stone was laid by Queen Victoria in the presence of Prince Albert, the Archbishop of Canterbury and a whole host of the good and great of Victorian society. From 1859 it was home at any one time to 300 orphaned daughters of servicemen who died on duty - beginning with the Crimean War. During WW1, the building was commandeered to be the Third London General Hospital, one of four territorial army hospitals in the capital for the war-wounded. The founding editor of the monthly hospital magazine, The Gazette, was the Canadian writer Ward Muir. Muir later published a book describing his experiences at the 3rd London General Hospital, Observations of an Orderly, Some Glimpses of Life and Work in an English War Hospital, which can be downloaded for free at www.archive.org/details/observationsorderly00muiruoft or www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/17655. The road behind the building is named after him. A great many Newfoundlander and Canadian soldiers were treated here, as a result of which the Canadian people contributed to the fund to buy an organ for the chapel. There are also Canadian war graves in the cemetery down the road. The girls returned between the wars, but after they were evacuated in 1939, the building was occupied by MI5 and everyone arriving from Occupied Europe was first taken there to be interrogated. Today it is a combination of studios, workshops and private apartments. Last year I arranged for a royal visit from Prince Michael of Kent, the current president of the Fund, to mark its 150th anniversary.
Simon
6 December 2008
Art, (in answer to a question) The Fund was originally called the Royal Victoria Patriotic Fund, and became the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation at the beginning of the twentieth century. Queen Victoria signed the charter creating it on 7 October 1854 and over the next 18 months it raised almost £1.5m (= £100 million today in terms of retail prices, = £1 billion today in terms of earnings). The monies were used to provide widows and orphans with a weekly allowance, and then after peace was signed, some £30,000 were used to build the Royal Victoria Patriotic Asylum (later School) for orphaned girls. A second orphanage, the Royal Victoria Patriotic Asylum for Boys was built in the grounds in the 1870s, but was sold to a private school in 1883 amid fears of having over-extended the finances. The proceeds from public appeals during subsequent conflicts (Boer War etc.) were entrusted to the RVPF. I don't believe its funds were ever subsumed into any others. The fund continues to operate today.
Simon
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royal hospital chelsea [chelsea college]
28 December 2008 |
Dear AW Cockerill, Not being a military man myself, your website (specifically the page http://www.achart.ca/york/newsreports.html ) left me even more confused than I had thought I was with regard to Chelsea College. At http://www.heraldry-online.org.uk/grant/grant-arms.html there are recorded the arms of one Lewis Grant who is described as the Adjutant of Chelsea College at the time of his matriculation - and the arms are recorded in 1780. Clearly this Chelsea College is long gone - and I guess that you can see that the impression I get from the comment on the page is that what you are talking about and calling Chelsea College was not a college in 1780. I need to follow up this gentleman... actually it would be ideal to find a living descendant. So I am hoping that you may be able to give me some advice about identifying someone who would know about the Chelsea College mentioned in the armorial. Failing this any other advice would be most welcome.
Adrian Grant
Clan Grant Seannachie
28 December 2008
Adrian, I can understand your confusion regarding the reference to Chelsea College as quoted in the reported excerpt from The Times for 18 June 1803. The reference in the next sentence to Sir David Dundas, Governor, clearly identifies the 'Chelsea College' as the 'Royal Hospital Chelsea' (otherwise known as the Chelsea Pensioners Hospital. Not only did the reporter of the news report for 18 June 1803 get it wrong about the Royal Military Asylum (which, as explained in the editorial copy, did not open until 30 August 1803) he incorrectly identified the Royal Hospital Chelsea as the Chelsea College. It may be a fact that the hospital was also known as the Chelsea College, but unlikely. However, as Sir David Dundas was in fact the Governor of the Royal Chelsea. Therefore, I am confident that Lewis Grant, described as the Adjutant of 'Chelsea College', was in fact the Adjutant of the Royal Hospital Chelsea. The Chelsea Pensioners Hospital is still in existence (see http..//www.achart.ca/york/csms.htm). Grant would unlikely be the adjutant (a military office) of a college in the ordinary sense of the word). However, your line of enquiry is now clear to me. I recommend that you write to the Adjutant (he might be a bursar today) of the Royal Hospital Chelsea and put your enquiry to him (or her). The records of the Hospital are well kept and go back to the beginning of this institution during the reign of Charles II. Another avenue of enquiry would of course be the National Archives. I note there appear two reports for 18 June, one for 1803, the other for 1805. Both deal with the visits of royalty except that the Royal Hospital Chelsea is correctly identified in the 18 July 1805 excerpt. Good luck with your continuing research. If you have more questions, I shall try to answer them.
Art Cockerill
28 December 2008
Art, Many thanks for a quick and comprehensive reply. I will follow your suggestions asap!
Adrian
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19 December 2008 |
Sir, Having found my ancestor in your brilliant RMA website I was hoping that you may be able to give me a few more details. George Hitchcock is listed as admitted to the RMA in 1808 at the age of 5 and was the son of William Hitchcock (19th Light Dragoons) and Sarah. George was discharged in 1816 to John Wasdell of 17 Old Jury. Would your records show why he was admitted, who was John Wasdel, was it 17 Old Jury of London? etc., and what would have happened to any other siblings. I know that William Hitchcock was "imprisoned for civil debt" while serving with the 19th Light Dragoons in Northampton in 1808 and died in Cork in 1813, according to records at the PRO, but don't know what the debt was for, or what happened to his other children, i.e. William jnr, Sarah jnr and Thomas. Also - two Hitchcocks, i.e. John and George Hitchcock of George Yard, Aldgate took on apprentices from the RMA, and I wondered whether you had any further information on these two as they may or may not be connected to my Hitchcocks.
Suzanne Hitchcock
19 December 2008
Susan, Thanks for your enquiry; very interesting because George Hitchcock and others of his era went back to the earliest years of the Royal Military Asylum. I've asked my colleague Peter Goble to check the admission registers to answer your questions. We only have those to go on although, a little later, we get to know a little of what happened to the children who left to become apprentices. Still, I'll wait until you hear from Peter before I comment further. You may expect to hear from Peter shortly.
Art Cockerill
19 December 2008
Susan, Thanks for the contact, more so because it tests the data to the beginning. All the information on George Hitchin, is as displayed on my web site. The letter A following the parent's names indicate that both were alive at the date of admission, but as the ledgers were completed by the boys, some errors have crept in. There are no other admissions for the name of Hitchin for the period before of 10 years after his admission. I have a note on the address of he went to as an apprentice, & chose Jury but it could be Jewry, and I have a vague recollection that it is somewhere close to the RMA & Royal Hospital. The other master, who took on boys from the RMA, was following the tradition of Master tradesmen collecting the boys for their ability to read write and know their numbers, and consider it doubtful that he was related. There may be another source of information, but I cannot guarantee that the records are still extant. Write to:- Lt Col R Say: Bursar: The Duke of York's School: Dover: Kent.
and include details of Entry No. Full Names. Date of Admission & Discharge, parents names and the apprenticed to. Most importantly, add your relationship, George Hitchcock, my Great Great Great Grandfather. Some success had been had to 1811. If you are successful, please let us know for our archive file. It is advisable to wait until early new year for the school is closed for the festive season.
Peter Goble
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18 December 2008
Hello, First can I thank you for the really helpful information on your RMA site. A Google hit on the site led me to information which cracked a family history problem we have been trying to solve for several years. My ggg-g father apprenticed his step son who was at the RMA from 1814 to 1820. I was at the NA yesterday looking at the original records and noticed that the 'casualties' book for the period when this record is entered appears to have a discrepancy. I can only surmise that the book has been rebound and stuck together incorrectly, because the entries in the 'apprentice' book do not match the same entries in the casualties book. The entries on the left hand side of the page do not match the information on the right hand side of the page. I have cross checked the whole page and all the entries appear to differ. I believe the apprentice book is correct because it matches with my family history, but the casualties book on this page does not. The entries are for a period in autumn 1820. (esp. Nov 1820). I thought I would mention this to you as anyone starting from the casualties book would get very confused and there may be other discrepancies in this book. You may
of course already be aware of this problem.
Kay Fountain
19 December 2008
Kay, Thank you for the compliment. And I am also pleased that serendipity smiled upon you via Google. The casualty book, I consider must be WO143/17 admissions to the RMA 1803 to 1826, and I agree it is in a rather dilapidated condition. I do have copies of both ledgers, so I will check that the error is not a transcription error. If you let me have his name and entry Number, I will be able to confirm that my records are OK. Mind you, it may be my fault because I had the book photocopied by the NA in 1998, and I consider some there are a little heavy handed with the ledgers when copying. A tip I discovered when following indexed ledgers like the WO143 series. Page 1. Left page:- contains the admit No and detail to Father's Regiment Page 2 R Hand page. Contains parents and discharge detail etc. Page 3 Turn over R Hand page and check that the 1st Number follows n sequence from the last entry of page 1. Theoretically, using this formulae, it is possible to find the error
page and correct.
Peter Goble
21 December 2008
Peter, The 'casualties' book is actually the discharges book WO 143/20. The apprenticeship book is WO 143/52. The discrepancy is in 143/20. Unfortunately these ledgers do not contain the admit numbers in order so can't be sequenced as you suggest. My relative's admit number is 1753, his name is William Stinton Sage and he was admitted on 11th May 1814. He was discharged on 23rd Nov 1820 to the care of his stepfather William Fountain.
The page in the discharges book which deals with this period (it seems to follow in chronological order of discharge) starts with the boys named Charles Bower and John O'Neal. Unfortunately my copy has cut off the left side with the admissions numbers on. The details on the right hand side of the page regarding the apprenticeships do not match the apprenticeship book. I looked at the book for evidence of a missing page but it seemed intact, however the binding of the book doesn't look original, whilst not an expert in these things I would say it looks like a later rebinding. Hope this helps!
Kay
21 December 2008
Kay, Thanks for the info. re the WO143/20 Ledger. I ignored this, unviewed, for the detail was covered in the 17 & 18 ledgers. with detail to 1880. And, the same data was found in the WO142/52, Apprentice Ledger, which you have discovered. I have checked the detail on my web site with the 17 & 52 ledgers and all is correct. A copy of the SAGE page WO143/17 Boys admissions 1803 to 1826 is attached for your records. To add confusion to the pot, the discharge ledger is by date of discharge, the only way to confirm is to cross check with the admission ledger for this too contains the discharge details. My instruction was of course for checking the accuracy of the WO143/17 admission ledger. It gets worse, some boys appear in the Defaulters ledgers, some also appear in 47/48/ 50/& 53 these boys were transferred to the normal school and were trained to be Army Schoolmasters , as this training took six years, to complete, they too appear in the Normal School Defaulters ledgers, fortunately your William is too early, but hopefully the Bursar will be able to fill in all the gaps. well, some of them Check achart.ca web site, there is an interesting tale we researched re a man from Jersey.
Peter
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5 December 2008 |
Art, I have finally received my RMA GC medal from the UK. Let me know if you want a photo but it is already on your website: The medal is as shown by Ian Lawrence, with a dark red ribbon and top 3 claw buckle, except the reverse reads ROYAL MILITARY ASYLUM around the outside, with FOR GOOD CONDUCT in the centre. Named on the rim to A. W. FENWICK in capitals. It is delightful and I am very pleased with it, particularly since you were able to get me information on Fenwick. My thanks. If Ian wants any additional info. on it please give him my email address.
David
5 December 2008
Ian, I hope you are well. See this note from David H, who wrote the book on temperance medals. His information is self-explanatory. He invites a note from you if you're interested in his latest acquisition. That Dukie GC medals bring so much on the open markets astonishes me. Always pleased to hear from you.
Art
12 December 2008
Art, Many thanks for the detail on the David Harris RMA Good Conduct medal. I have been scouring the Dix, Noonan and Webb catalogues but all the RMA/DYRMS medals appear to be in collections. At militaria fairs (I also collect antique pistols) the few medal dealers that attend admit to knowing about the medal but comment on its rare appearance. The word to them is if you get one I'll buy it. I suppose owning three is a bit of a bonus. I have also been looking out for the odd Temperance medal but so far I have not come across one with a RHMS or DYRMS symbol - now that would be a find! Although the DYRMS with the crimson ribbon on a three-bar buckle that I have, is similar in style to the nineteenth century issued Victoria Cross and Army LS&GC medal ribbon, the second medal with a green ribbon and no buckle, is also correctly mounted and came in a B. Ninnes of Hythe goldsmith's case. Although I do not know where the 1850 provenance for the start of the issue of the medal comes from (except for the Medal Year Book) notwithstanding the change in ribbon colour, the three medals are identical. Then there is the chap in your internet article who had his Grandfather's 'bronze' version. Given the passage of time, I doubt that this mystery will ever be solved.
Art
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