SUBJECTS

Army Education
Hibernian Horn
Royal Hibernian Military School
Royal Military Asylum
Sir Percy Sillitoe

Thanks for your response about by ancestors William & Alfred Wheeler. I know very little about William Wheeler other than he was definitely a Schoolmaster in Gibraltar in 1861. I visited Kew about 10 years ago to research him and found his name (and His wife Harriet as Assistant) on the pay list for the Kings Regiment. As to Alfred Ernest Wheeler I have my grandfather Harold's birth certificate in Newry, Northern Ireland dated 8 October 1885 which shows his father Alfred's occupation as "Schoolmaster, 1st Devon Regiment". I also have a copy of Regimental Orders for 2nd Batt. Royal Munster Fusiliers issued at Cawnpore on 24 May 1895 recording "Schoolmaster A. E. Wheeler is appointed a Warrant Officer from 3 January 1895" and I also have seen a certificate and references in about 1911 recording 30 years services with the Army, so he was definitely an Army Schoolmaster. Unfortunately I do not have attestation papers for him. Hopefully the above detail is helpful and look forward to learning anything else you can discover for me. Thanks again.

Chris

10 March 2008

You were presumably referring to my colleague's response to your enquiry dated 25 February 2008. I don't know that he would have any more to add given the new information you have now supplied. I am sending a copy of this reply to Mr. Goble and to whom I imagine you acknowledged his extensive response with the usual courtesy note of thanks. However, I wouldn't know about that because he doesn't always send me a copy of his correspondence. He being the expert on the records of the Army Normal School, he would be the obvious person to address your further enquiry. In any case, as I said, I'll forward your info to Mr Goble. He may have something.

Art Cockerill

10 March 2008

Thanks for your prompt response. I have only just noticed Mr Goble's e-mail address on your replies. I did not receive a direct response - only that on the web site. I will of course now thank him for the trouble he has taken in responding.

Chris Wheeler

11 March 2008

There is a procedure for writing & responding to emails. Although I work hand in glove with Art Cockerill, if I send a letter, then I expect the reply. Equally so for Art with his mail. Neither of us appreciate being treated as an afterthought. There are no more records here.

Peter Goble

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13 March 2008

I am searching for any information about an Alan Kenneth White who is shown as an Army Schoolmaster on his marriage certificate in 1911. He is living at the time in Queen Victoria Soldiers Home, Woolwich. Could you point me in the right direction to find out anything about him?

Many thanks

Hello; I have tried to send an email to the schoolmasters@rma-searcher.co.uk address, but the email has bounced back. Could you please forward the following email to the up to date address or let me know who I should send it to.

Julie Fraser

13 March 2008

Julie; Thank you for the contact, and my apologies for the lost email address. I am in the process or rolling over to a new email address, and I seem to have omitted the schoolmasters. I have checked the data held, unfortunately, I have no details ref an A K L White circa 1911, I do have a data base of schoolmasters that I received from the Adjutant General Corps Museum, this too does not have a WHITE that fits your parameters. I am constructing a further Schoolmaster data base, based on those discovered in the census, I have completed to 1891, with the 1901 yet to do. Also included is a list of those awarded medals in the 14-18 war, I did not find an Alan WHITE. As he married in 1911, it can be assumed that he was approx 25, and will have served during this conflict. He should be there somewhere. Check at the National Archives, it can be done on line for free. Commence with Military History, then Medal Rolls, then look for WO 372, the Schoolmaster rolls are in the region of WO 372/1 to 30 Another source, is the Curator of the;- "Adjutant General's Corps Museum. Winchester"

Slot the named museum into your search engine, and his email address will be found. Let him have as much detail as you have. Name DOB, any info re his military service, name of his wife, I am sure, that if there is anything within his archives he will help. I have placed your email in my watching brief. Should I discover an Alan White, I will c6ntact you

Peter Goble

I've read with great interest the site about the Royal Hibernian Military School. I'm researching the life of the Distin(guished) musicians who performed on the Royal Hibernian Horn. Do you have an information on this instrument?

Ray Farr

24 March 2008

Ray: No I don't, but I've heard of it. I do, however, have a couple of contacts who might have a clue or two about the Hibernian horn, so I'll put it to them in hopes of getting a positive answer.

Art

24 March 2008

Art: I have not come across any reference to the Hibernian Horn. I don't think the RHMS made any concessions to Irish traditions in music or indeed anything else in the folk history of Ireland! Its Irish dimension in the 18th Century was very much that of the Ascendancy & in 19th and 2Oth Centuries the British Army used "Irishness" when it suited (vis. wolf hound and pipes in the Irish Guards). I have had a similar inquiry about Irish pipe music at the RHMS. However suspect that the Royal HIbernian Academy in Dublin may be able to help.

Howard

24 March 2008

Ray/Art: I had a similar query a couple of years ago. The only reference re a horn in Ireland is at www.pgil-eirdata.org/html/pgil_datasets/authors/p/Petrie,G/life.htm. This is ref a 1st century AD. There was also a mention of a relationship between the Harp of Tara and a horn, perhaps in the same vein as the 'Horn of Ripon".
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C0CE3DB1730EE3ABC4F53DFBE 66838A699FDE refers to the family DISTIN (5) all musicians and living in New York. It is probable but highly unlikely that there was a competition amongst the Horn players of the RHMS. There will have been the F Horn, change crooks quickly if there was an awkward key change. It is doubtful that there was a Flugel Horn, these seem to exist only for the Brass Bands and form a transition between the cornet & tenor horn (a mini euphonium). Slot 'DISTIN' as the search parameter and many pages re this family are displayed. There is no mention of Horn players in those admission ledgers that remain at the National Archives and National Army Museum. When I first thought about this instrument, I recalled a strange instrument I saw as a youth. It was made of a sheep's femur. about 8-10 inches long.sides had been squared off, 8 holes to the front and thumb hole at the rear. A tube of cow horn had been spread to form a bell and affixed to the lower part. a separate reed was inserted (hidden) . There was no fipple. The musician blew down the tube of the reed holder. I was led to believe that the musicians were shepherds up on the moor top on either side of the Tees Valley. If you could offer some pointers re your research so far, I will try a different approach.

Peter

Sirs: On tracing my Family History i have come across a Bernard Toner born July 1893 in Ranihket India Father Daniel Toner (found him in Pension records of British Army) He had brothers older Henry, and younger Daniel and Martin. The brother Daniel I believe to be my Grandfather's father as recorded on my g-father's marriage certificate Fathe.r Daniel Toner Occ. Coffee Planter. Deceased. I have found Daniel Edwin Toner on the British Army records died in east africa in 1917,..Tanzinikya. I think this Daniel Edwin is the same as on the marriage certificate, but have not yet found a wife to this Daniel. On Bernard's Pension papers it states his education and one of the schools listed is the Royal Hibernian Military School. Are there any pupil records for around 1900-1910 or when he would have been likely at the school he joined up into the Loyal North Lancashires in September 1915 at Bangalore India served just 47 days and then found unfit for duty and discharged. My thought was that Daniel his father must have been serving in some Government Office or the British Army. Bernard's Papers give address for father as ..Green Cottage, Haines Rd, St. John's Hill Bangalore ... Please help if you can .. Thank you

Michelle McIntosh (néeTONER)

3 March 2008

Michelle: Thank you for the contact. Unfortunately your relative did not attend the RHMS. The section of his attestation papers you refer to re Educated at RMA-DYRMS-RHMS-Industrial School is part of a statistical collection, a count of all boys enlisting at 14 to the Army. To be true, the school attended has to be marked and the box to the right of the page and initialled by the recruiting officer. To be eligible for admission, the father of the applicant must have served at least 4 years in the Army. His father as you state was a Coffee planter. To be absolutely sure, I have checked the ledger, WO143/79 RHMS Admissions 1877 to 1907, if he had qualified for admission, his name should have been entered. No TONERS were admitted to the RHMS between 1844-1907

Peter Goble

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9 March 2008

I don't know whether you are able to help me. I've only just come across your site as I've found out that an ancestor of my father's is shown as being educated here in the late 1800s. Although I haven't found his name on the lists, I have found my father's great uncle, Clifton B R Pollard. I had found out that he was at the Royal School of Military Engineering in 1871, but hadn't known about him being here. It states that his father was in the 7th Fusiliers, so would that have been the Irish Fusiliers or the English (yet again another question is raised as Clifton's father Joseph is shown as being a sergeant in the Staffordshire Militia and a Chelsea Pensioner when he died in 1874) Any information at all will be a great help as we didn't know anything at all about the family having been in the military until I started looking. Also does the fact that he was here mean that his father was definitely Irish. I only ask because he was apparently born in Halifax near Leeds, although his wife was from Cork. Thanks,

Jill Playford

9 March 2008

Jill, Thanks for the contact. I have a little more information re POLLARD, he was admitted 22/08/1862 aged 11y 11 m he was 55.375 inches tall, weighed 5 stones and had a chest mesurement of 26 inches. Data extracted fro WO143/78 Boys admissions 1847-1877. This ledger is at the national archives. Kew. The Regiment of his father was the Royal Fusiliers. (Set 7th Regiment of Foot as your web search, and you will discover the history of this Regiment). The other gent, well I am afraid that he falls in the Attestation papers statistic trap. All boys who volunteered aged 14, had to declare if they had been educated at the shools mentioned, The RMA, RHMS, Industrial School. The school must be indicated and the recruiting offices initials the box to the right of the form. The bulk of the school records were destroyed in an air raid in 1942.

Peter

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10 March 2008

Mr Goble: I am researching my family history and have a photo of the grave of my 3rd g-grandparents, William and Eliza Watson. the inscription reads late Sergeant of the 10th Lancers and Hospital Sergeant of the Royal Hibernian Military School. Died 29th April 1869 aged 65. His wife died 22nd March 1869 aged 66. I enlarged the right hand corner of the gravestone and found the name 'Glassnevin' so assume the grave is in Dublin. I wonder if you would have any other information about William and what his duties at the School would have been. I apologise that I have been unable to attach the photo, but if you let me have a postal address I can send a copy if you would like one.

Sheila lines

10 March 2008

Jim, Unfortunately, there are no records available for the RHMS Staff during the 19th century, neither are there any census returns for Ireland. However not all is lost, I do have a copy of the Extended Parliamentary Papers for Ireland dated 19th May 1864. Your William WATSON. gets a mention as the Hospital Sergeant, with a salary of £36.10.0 per annum with allowances of £25.12.9½ he is shown to be a Protestant and was at that time a resident of the RHMS. There is no mention of his wife. As Hospital Sergeant, he will have been responsible for the smooth running of the hospital under the direction of the Medical officer. There will have been at least two nurses to complete the staff. Their duties would include care of boys admitted to the ward, and assisting the Medical office with the daily sick parade with the subsequent treatment of the patients. Most soldiers at the RHMS had completed their pensionable service and if accepted for a post at the RHMS, could, as your William indicates, have full employment until 65+. You could also explore the muster rolls of his Regiment. This will indicate his service, birth of his children and his transfer to the RHMS. These rolls are kept at the National Archives. Kew. If you head for my RHMS website, follow the NEW hyperlink and this leads to the page with the detail re 1864 head count

Peter Goble

I wonder if you can help me? My great great grandfather Frederick Henry Hardie appears to have been enlisted at RMA Chelsea aged 9 . His father had died at Wazirabad when he was just 5. His father John Hardie was a Corporal in G troop, 9th Lancers. I have him as being a serjeant in the 9th Lancers. I believe his birthday to have been 1st Nov 1844 and baptised (born?) at Cawnpore, India.
I wonder in your records if you have any further information on him or his parents, John Hardie & Helen. Perhaps if not, you could advise or direct me? Any help will be much appreciated.

Roger Corti

7 March 2008

Roger, A red letter day for me. I have transcribed 3 punishment ledgers and have yet to receive an enquiry, that is until today WO143/54 Punishment ledger 1853-1857 06/07/1855 HARDIE Frederick Overstaying his leave & not bringing back his shirt at midsummer. Pass Stopped 2/01/1856 Absent from Doctors Inspection & Morning Prayers 3 days drill. I have no other detail that that displayed on my web site, however write to Lt. Col. R Say: Bursar: The Duke of York's School: Dover. Kent: CT15 6EQ Ask if there are any records re F HARDIE, admitted on, Parents names, Father's Regiment, date of discharge and most importantly, the relationship of the boy to you, 'My Great Great Grandfather.' Please let us know of your success, so far a happy researcher received data from 1806, this has been the earliest.

Peter

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19 March 2008

Peter, I write to let you know as promised the result of my request to Lt Col Say, the Bursar at The Duke of York's Royal Military School at Dover. You may recall my original request to you for information on the my great uncles, the twins, Frederick and William Wade. As you suggested, I wrote to Col Say and explained my enquiry into their passage through the school and their relationship to me. Today I received a very prompt reply only eight days after I wrote with my request and enclosed were copies of their mother's 'Humble Petition' for each son to join the RMA and their subsequent conduct records. I now know their Pupil Numbers, the date they entered the school (28 March 1890) and the date they left (31 January 1894) to enlist as privates in the 66th Regiment. The application petition also contains information on their father's service overseas and the date of his death in Malta. This is very useful also as it confirms data that I had been unsure about concerning their father. Their conduct records make very interesting reading and give a small insight into their life at the RMA and also their characters. They each received 4 of the "Switch" on more than one occasion as punishment for minor transgressions of school rules. I now have enough information to perhaps find what happened to them next. Later this year I will make another visit to The National Archives at Kew to check my grandfather's service record in the Rifle Brigade so will add the twins to my search list. Well you were correct in being optimistic in your e-mail to me and once again no failures. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction.

John Clemens

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27 March 2008

My name is Stephen Anderson. I am trying to find info on my Great, Great Grandfather Hugh Anderson who was a Sergeant in the 26th Regt, of Ft . The Cameronion Regt. I believe he was stationed in Cork, Ireland in the early 1800s and died there in the Cholera outbreak sometime in the 1840s. He had a wife named Julia Mary and 2 sons Archibald James and Hugh. After his death, they were admitted to The Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea. Archibald James, Age 5, admitted 5/14/1852 and Discharged 1/20/1859 Hugh, Age 5, admitted 10/5/1853 and Discharged 8/16/1862 Both were delivered to their Mother Julia Mary. If you have any info on Sgt. Hugh Anderson, where he is buried? His wife's Maiden name. Where she was Born? Also where she was living at the time? Any info would be extremely helpful as my brothers and I were in orphanages and did not have access to family history so we are trying to play catch up!

Stephen F Anderson

Stephen: Thanks for the contact. You have all the details that I have, but there is still one more source to tap. Write to Lt. Col R Say, Bursar, The Duke of York's School. Dover. Kent CT15 6EQ, England. Ask if there are any records re 'My Great Great-Grandfather' give full names, date of admission, parents names and Regiment of the father. It is most important you state your relationship to the boy The school will be on holiday until about the 6th April. I am sure that you will not be disappointed, just let us know of your success, we like to keep a record of successful forays into the School archives.

Peter

Many thanks Harry, this is the first I have seen of it. Have not heard from Art Cockerill for quite a while. Has Doug seen it yet? There are one or two spelling errors which I have spotted, specially Ilunde starting with an L instead of capital i. I knew that was going to be a difficult one for the printer.

Ron

12 March 2008

Ron: Thanks for keeping me up to date on Sillitoe. At least he took the trouble to give his NR son a decent start in life. I find the worst aspect is that he continued to live with one woman after having become engaged to marry another.

Tim

14 March 2008

Tim: You take a very narrow view on this. In the Great War the chances of anyone ever seeing their loved ones again may well have seemed very slim. Nearly all the white men who went to very remote posts in those times either died of a fever, turned to drink, drugs, or took a cook's wife. There are plenty of stories in the NR Journal to show this. Percy was lucky that Dolly waited for him, but the African Bush still had plenty in store for him after they were married and he was lucky to come out alive. He was fortunate to be able to protect both his English and his African families from the tittle-tattle that would have done the rounds if he did not have such stalwart friends in the District Administration who were in the same position as he. So little is known about them and their African offspring. There is a book just waiting to be written there.

Ron

14 March 2008

Ron: I strongly agree with you on your judgment of the chances of survival during WWI. Those of us who had fathers on the Western Front or for that matter in Africa with primitive medicine of the day and harsh conditions understand only too well the plight of those who served. Ditto for WWII if it comes to that. In any case, and for my part, the events we're discussing took place almost a hundred years ago, which might was well have been two, five or six hundred years in the past. One is unwise to apply contemporary morality or social mores to events long past, although many historians do. Yet compare Sir Percy's sense of responsibility and social conscientiousness with, say, that of New York Governor Spitzer. There is no comparison. Sir P was an honourable man and I can regard him in no other light. Sorry about those bloopers - Ilunde and all. I think they're now corrected and, if not, you can tell me!

Art

15 March 2008

Ron: Perhaps I am being hard on Sillitoe and 'worst' was the wrong choice of word. I am, of course, aware of the events described in the NR Journal. you would be interested in some of the correspondence in the National Archive at Kew about a couple of cases concerning Assistant Native Commissioners which came to the attention of the Secretary of State. he demanded instant dismissal. Lawrence Aubrey Wallace, the Administrator of NR would agree it was reprehensible but point out that the young man had not seen a white woman (and only precious few other white men for two or three years, was overdue for leave and would be reprimanded. In one case SofS said such conduct must undermine the repsect in which the official was held by the 'natives'. Wallace conceded that this could be so but not half as much as if the Africans believed he was not interested in women at all. The High Commissioner in SA, as pig in the middle took a middle view. Wallace prevailed perhaps, thanks in part to being a BSACo official not directly under thew Colonial Office.

Of course NRP officers spent less time in complete isolation although even on the boundary commission the escort officer does not seem to have lived huggermugger with the regular army party. I am neither surprised nor censorious by Sillitoe's having embarked on the affair. Perhaps illogically I would find less fault if he had in the loneliness of Ilunde taken up with a local girl there. He became engaged on his return from UK leave in early 1913. He was then at Lusaka until leaving for Abercorn in Oct 1914. It is interesting that there was a near mutiny there over the question whether the African police drafted in from elsewhere in the Territory could have women in the camp. I did not discover this until after the history was published and have been unable to obtain the details. In January 1917 after more than six months of mobile warfare Sillitoe was evacuated sick and spent six months in hospital or recuperating in SA. On reporting back for duty he is posted as a political officer to Bismarksburg District and ends up 250 miles further north in Ilunde. Did he take Mary with him or did she find him. If he took her around with him it must have taken some planning and subterfuge and yes I do find that less than creditable in a man who hopes all the time to marry someone else. If she just turned up that is another matter.
    It is to the credit of Chirapula Stevenson that he married and remained married. I am not judging Sillitoe by the standards of today, if there are any but more by the standards of his own day. Of course he came from a different background to Stevenson and if he had remained faithful to Mary Museba it is highly unlikely his UK police career would have even started. I don't condemn Sillitoe outright nor would I have expected him to have followed the example of Stevenson let alone Arthur Davison! I merely say he is open to criticism.
    I note what Art Cockerill says about R A Howe. Howe retired as a chief inspector in 1933 but I believe he was employed as a DC's clerk in WW2. I don't believe he was ever a District Commissioner. I have not heard that any NRP officer other than Sillitoe had an African girlfriend, long or short term. Obviously it would not have been publicised! Howe spent most of his post WWI career in Livingstone where such a way of life would have been difficult. I can't remember any coloured families with the same surnames as other of the original NRP officers but perhaps there were/are some.

Tim

16 March 2008

Tim: Thanks for all this additional research information from Kew etc. Ronald Howe the policeman is not the same person as Gilbert Howe who together with James Beverick Thompson, helped Sillitoe keep his secret, they were both members of the District Administration about whom we know all too little other than the fact that there are coloured offspring with their names. One, now elderly, coloured chap in Zambia with the name of Howe when asked by Harry Sillitoe if his father was Gilbert Howe, fell to tears on the phone - as apparently he was never told who his white father was. As for how Mary Museba came to be at the remote post of Ilunde with Sillitoe, I fear this is something we will never know. Perhaps she was already used to accompanying Sillitoe's Ugandan cook Prosper.
    I am not even sure which of the two places with the name Illunde in that part of Tanzania today is the right Ilunde. I have chosen the most northerly and the remotest as the most likely, but it could also have been the one near Lake Rukwa. I don't have a good enough map to take measurements and mileages, nor to get the names of rivers that Art asked for. Sillitoe was most unhelpful in his description of his African days in that he seldom mentions the names of people who were with him, but he does mention one servant by name who was with him circa 1921 and stopped him shooting himself to escape the pain of the Rheumatic fever in his knee after a curse had been put on him by a witch doctor. The servant was simply named "Lawe" - so we do not know if this was the same Prosper who had been with him earlier and who took Mary Museba as his wife. I did e-mail the present day headmaster at St. Paul's Choir School to see how easy it might be to discover who the ex St. Paul's chap was who in 1908 induced Sillitoe to go to Africa. The records are there to be examined, but they are not apparently on-line.

[1908 ~ Unnamed ex St Paul's boy ~ Secretary for Native Affairs in North Eastern Rhodesia ~ responsible for Sillitoe going to Africa]

The Best description of the custom of taking a Cook's woman that I have found is by:-

1912c R. Murray-Hughes ~ not mentioned by Tod describes the white man's answer to the "Seven Year Itch" in the form of "The Cook's Woman"Kafue-Namwala in 1912 NRJ page 106 unlike Tod, he names all the people he meets, he mentions Sillitoe & Blatherwick on page 113

Your reference to a near mutiny in Lusaka over African Police from elsewhere having their wives in camp with them sounds interesting. Would love to learn more !

Ron

16 March 2008

Ron: I have already mentioned it in my emails to you and Art before That Mary Museba was taken to Ilunde by Sillitoe and they met at Old Fife. My Mothers mother was actually there at the time, this was told to me by my mum. Prosper was not with Sillitoe at this particular time and place. My grandmother on my mums side explained that two Askaris actually escorted her to Sillitoe. Later after some months to a year she again met Mary who was time Pregnant heading for her village. Gilbert Howe's coloured son had emigrated to Southern Rhodesia and died there, my mother knew him. James Beverick Thompson's son is here in Lusaka with me. Finally would Tim Wright have any connection to the Wright family in Livingstone?

Harry

16 March 2008

Harry: Thank you for reminding me of that piece of the jigsaw - there is so much to try and remember. If you ever find anyone who goes up into Tanzania into the area where either of the two Ilunde villages are today - it would be interesting to learn from the village elders which of them was the German and later the British Boma out-station. Or if you have a good enough map - which of the two Ilunde villages is 150 miles from Tabora and 250 miles from what used to be Bismarksberg. I will copy this to Tim for him to answer your question as to the Wright (or wrong Wright) family in Livingstone!

Ron