SUBJECTS

Duke of York's RM School - Rules of admission
Group Captain George Cecil Gardiner
Poplar Training School
Royal Hibernian Military School
Royal Military Asylum

Sir, I am researching soldiers in the Second World War who served "under age", and, as you have written about the DYRMS, I thought you might be able to direct me to some sources or published works and archival material specifically about this subject. Perhaps you might know also of youngsters who served in the Royal Navy and RAF. I would appreciate your assistance.

Colin MacMillan
Military Historical Research
Battlefield Tours Limited

25 November 2008

Colin, If you consult my book Sons of the Brave (1984), Secker & Warburg, (available in most libraries) you'll find a considerable amount of information on under-age soldiers who served in WWII. That includes reference sources. At the time of writing, there were about 250,000 ex-boy soldiers who served, including those in WWI through to the Falklands Campaign. The National Archives of Canada, Ottawa, has seven volumes (3"- three-ring binders) of research material including letters on the subject; also under URL http://www.achart.ca/publications/cdn_boy_soldiers.htm is posted an illustrated article on Canadian boy soldiers. Regarding our own alma mater, we Dukies during the war years were simply shovelled into the army under-age, enlisting for seven and five (seven with the colours and five with the reserve) as soon as we reached 14 1/2. If I can be of further help I expect you'll let me know. In return, perhaps I can ask you a question or two. By the time you joined the School a considerable number of changes had taken place. Had the school by then begun accepting the sons of commissioned officers? If so, in your estimation, what proportion of the boys of your acquaintance were in that category. Until the end of WWII boys accepted for admission were in one of the following categories:

1: Full orphan or both parents deceased
2: Father deceased; Mother alive
3: Mother deceased, Father alive
4: Both parents alive, father on foreign service

Had those rules changed by the time you joined the school? [This information, regrettably, is not available from the school authorities, who are a bit close-mouthed on the subject.] Good luck with your researches

Art Cockerill

26 November 2008

Art, Thank you for your considerable help. I have your book of course, so I will refer to it for other sources. As to admittance of sons of commissioned officers I will ask amongst the colleagues of our years as we run a sort of luncheon club for the 1953 to 1963 Dukies; that is those joining and leaving within that time span, so I have contact with many. My father was a Captain in The Black Watch; but he had joined the Scots Guards as a guardsman in 1934 and was sent to OCTU in 1942 when they rebuilt the 51st (Highland) Division, so as far as me qualifying for DYRMS his service counted as a soldier I suppose. The father of my good friend, John Simpson (Wolfe 1956-1963), who lives in California, was, I remember, a Major in the South Staffordshire Regiment; and I think he may have been wounded just north of Caen, which might have made a difference; I will ask. As I am sometimes asked to research father's was service for colleagues I know one who was a Churchill tank driver mortally wounded at Maltot, near Caen; many others were NCOs, others certainly were orphans. John Hann, of course, was an officer's son; but he may have done service in the ranks. It was not something we asked. I would guess the school does not have time to collate the information; but our National Archives might have a policy document, for which I could search if you like.

Colin

24 November 2008

Colin, Thanks for your response; lovely to hear from you, and thanks, too, for answering my questions. My interest in the subject of the paternal parentage of post-WWII Dukies is purely altruistic. I have the same attitude to this as I do to the policy decisions of the Board of Commissioners; that is, the Board alone knows how best to run the School and should not be influenced by the collective opinion of those who have passed through the institution. We, after all, are the beneficiaries of a generosity that goes back to the founders: York, Windham, Calvert, Dundas et al. You may know something of the brouhaha that took place (I think, shortly before your time) when some old boys responded fiercely to Achie Nye's reforms. Nye reacted with equal ferocity. For my part, I felt genuinely sorry for the old sergeant-majors, for the RSM (Whacker Jones) and their fellow ex-military members of staff who were put out to grass. I also felt they had been served shoddily. Nevertheless, that was a decision of the Board and, actually, none of the business of ex-Dukies. At the same time, opening the doors of the school, first to the sons of commissioned ranks, then to all branches of the armed forces, then to the daughters of serving and time-served personnel of all ranks is a matter of extreme historical interest. How one registers these changes and equates them with the evolving character and nature of the institution's persona, so to speak, is an essential aspect of the School's history. Peter (Goble - K1947-52), with whom I work, and I are therefore interested in every scrap of info that will help us form a picture. Ben Burd (Wn 1956-63), who lives a few streets from me, was the son of Major. We have discussed the subject. (A couple of others, too, with whom I've been in contact, have been frank and open on the subject). The consensus is that the character of the school changed when the commissioned ranks were permitted to enter their sons; that there was a dividing line between them and the sons of other ranks if strongly attested. One reported that a field officer's wife dissatisfied with the reported treatment of her son felt perfectly justified in telephoning the comdt, headmaster or adjutant and venting her spleen. How to get a measure of these changes, alleged or otherwise, how to obtain a statistical listing - which is entirely possible from the pre-1950 admission registers - is exceedingly difficult. Both Peter and I have this data and I know from my records that no pattern emerges from the listed ranks of fathers. [In my day, there was a strong division between the sons of cavalrymen, the Brigade of Guards, and line regts., but that was while the school was at Dover; it disappeared once we were evacuated to Cheltenham and N. Devon.] Division between commissioned and non-commissioned ranks is hard to measure. You say not; I take due note of that. In answer to your point that your father was a ranker in 1934 and commissioned in 1942, I'd say that until the policy change re. admissions, only the sons of 'other ranks' were admitted. If a commissioned officer's son gained entry, chances are that the father was himself an ex-RMA student or ex-Dukie. Still, if you're ever at the National Archives and can do any digging to this end I'd be most grateful. You'll note that a considerable number of people appear on the cc line. They are all members of a Dukie loop that includes members (Danny Kirwan of NJ - (Wn 1923-1928) to someone from the 1980s). This loop, mostly of downunder members, but others in France, the UK and SA, is interested in all aspects of our history. When someone starts a discussion, everyone is welcome to chip in their pennyworth. Hence, I've taken the liberty of leaving your response on this message. What would you like to know about life in N. Devon? I'll see if I can oblige. Two or three of us in the loop were there and have, of course, tales to tell.

Art

28 November 2008

Art, when my father applied for me to be a Dukie (1938) he was a Sgt in the RAOC. By the time I got to Saunton (1941) he was a Captain. Grenna Green joined the same day as me; his father was a Captain in the Royal Signals. I do know that there were only a few of us at that time who still had both parents. I do not recall the fathers rank making any difference to the way one was treated. I still managed to get 2 X 2 lots of strokes, plus a couple of thumpings in the ring. If I had to be anywhere during those years I cannot think of anywhere better than Saunton. A big long sandy beach, we had the run of all the hills and valleys, plus a quarry where we could have a smoke. We were fairly well fed, very little if any bullying, when the Americans arrived it got even better, ask Ray. The acceptance of officers sons and later daughters would have been a natural progression post war,

Jim Dove (Australia)

27 November 2008

Art, As usual I have a comment. As I understand the rules of acceptance was that the father must have done at least 4 years in the ranks. Jim (Dove) qualified under that rule so did John Hann. There would have been others. I failed to get Rhod in since I was medically discharged well under 4 years. At the time I applied so (unknown to me) did my younger brother. He failed because instead of Sandhurst he took a WOSB and was commissioned after 6 months at Eaton Hall Cheshire. Both brother Patrick and I fell foul of The Druid's bigoted views on OBA and in our cases he was the final arbiter. I believe the 4 year rule was hurriedly devised to obviate the possibility of thousands of National Service men applying.

Ray

27 November 2008

Loopies, On the rules of admission, I believe we might be getting somewhere. A review of the early registers (Aug 1803-Aug 1880) shows that no father of entrants, boys and girls, was above the rank of sgt major. The majority were private soldiers although there was a good number of NCOs including some ranks not recognised today: cpl and sgt wheelers (Horse Artillery), musicians, a couple of Bandmasters (not commissioned ranks). How many commissioned officers appear during the 1880 to 1939 period I cannot say. The point Ray made re. the 4-year rule is taken and what Jim (Dove) wrote of his father being an NCO commissioned in 1942 is an increasingly familiar situation throughout WWII and, I should think, a natural progression post-WWII as Jim wrote. Ray's comments on the influence of the Druid in the matter of acceptance for admission, however, is a misnomer. Qualification for admission rested solely with the Board of Commissioner. The Commandant had no say in the matter. We know this from Howard Clarke's research on the RHMS. By order of the War Office, admissions were entirely dependent on the decision of a select committee of the Board of Governors. What applied to the RHMS almost certainly applied to the Duke of York's. Even in the early days of the RMA, the decision as to who would be admitted and who not was in the hands of the Board of Commissioners. [The RHMS had governors, the RMA Commissioners.]

Jim asked about Dundas, one of the first commissioners of the RMA. Sir David Dundas (1735-1820) was a career officer who began his life-long occupation in the 52nd Foot. He would be the man after whom the suburb of Sydney was named (ditto for a main thoroughfare in Toronto). Dundas was an exceedingly influential officer who published a book on infantry tactics, became C-in-C of the Army when York had to stand down over a scandal involving his (York's) mistress. He was a member of the first Board of Commissioners of the RMA. Good bloke, but by repute a tough and fair officer.

Art

27 November 2008

All, I have the admissions to 1924, no officer fathers though. The only offering was the Captain demoted last week to Lt, by the researcher and then demoted again by me to Colour Sergeant as per the ledger. Ted Beck is an example, his father served in the 14-18, and returned in 1939; he too was a Captain. Ted arrived at the school in 1949. Attached the four non-military volunteers. There was an excuse for WINGROVE, with a name like Nelson where else could he go. The interesting trio, volunteering to the RAF, were not Dukies, but Hibernian Boys, three of the last 200 that were transferred to the DYRMS when the RHMS disbanded. Minimal detail on these three, info gleaned from WO143/26 RHMS Discharge ledger 1918-1932 also included in this ledger are discharges for the DYRMS, 1958. Unfortunately, most that are mentioned, from 1940-1958 have a name and school number only.

peter

Born in Poona, India, son of Lieutenant Gardiner (not captain) who died of a tropical disease there prior to Cecil's birth. Lieutenant Gardiner was probably with the Worcestershire Regiment.

Graham T. Welsh
(related to these Gardiners)

21 November 2008

Thanks for the correction. I'll demote the captain to lieutenant in due course. Sorry I can't cite the Worcestershire Regiment; too ambiguous a reference.

21 November 2008

Peter, Can you give me a hand on this one? See this note from Graham T. Welsh re. the copy posted at URL http://www.achart.ca/york/george_gardiner.htm. I am quite certain that my reference to Gardiner's father, Captain Gardiner, came from the notation in the admissions register. I might be wrong. It's a long time ago that I posted the copy. Can you confirm that his father is recorded as a captain? If not I don't know where the heck I got that information from; it certainly didn't come out of thin air. It seems odd to me that this fellow who reckons to be related to the Gardiners doesn't know what tropical disease to which the father succumbed, nor his regiment, but is so adamant about his rank. [Doubtful to me if he was a lieutenant. Even in my day, lieutenants could have girl friends, whereas second lieutenants could not; captains could be engaged and with the COs permission get married; and majors had to be married. That was the mantra of the mess anyway. We might hear what our other commissioned fellows in the loop have to say on the subject.]

Art

22 November 2008

Extract from admissions register (NA WO143/60-Boys admission 1880-1907): George Cecil Gardiner, entry No. 11601, DoB 09/02/1902, admitted 12/09/1901, sponsored by the Worcestershire Regt. Father C/Sgt (Colour Sergeant) Charles Gardiner, deceased; Mother Beatrice, alive at date of admission. Discharged 31/03/1906. Delivered to Mother.Hence, we are both wrong. George Gardner's father was a C/Sgt, not a commissioned officer.

Art C

23 November 2008

I would not close the book just yet. The Times, reporting on the death of Cecil (as he was known in the family) said: ....."son of Charles Gardiner, lieutenant and quartermaster." according to Cruttenden, whose interest in the Gardiners I never did discover. Having served in the RAF 1940-6 as air observer, I do not know whether an army quartermaster would be an officer or senior NCO. Not having known his father, Cecil may well have talked about him as Colour Sergeant with a sense of pride rather than as a run-of-the-mill officer. In any event, he certainly had been the Colour Sergeant.

I knew Charles' sister, Alice Welsh, who was still living during WW2. She was my grandmother. Most of her family talk during the thirties naturally related to her cousins rather than her long-deceased brother. I supplied Cruttenden with Cecil's portrait for his web site.

Graham T. Welsh

24 November 2008

Art, He (Gardiner's father) could have been promoted to Lieutenant Quartermaster after his son had become a Dukie! All QM's come from the ranks - just a thought!

Gus (France)

24 November 2008

I capitulate! I have, thanks to your comments, amended my records. I had certainly wondered about the admission requirements for the Duke of York's School. At the time of Charles' death the quartermaster sergeant was usually a colour sergeant while the quartermaster was usually a captain. This might explain the confusion in reporting by the Times and other media on the death of Charles. At the moment I am leaving it as quartermaster-sergeant Charles Gardiner. As a matter of interest, my g-g-g-grandfather, Captain James Welsh, served in the RN from 1793 until after Trafalgar. In 1797, as midshipman he was appointed Acting Junior Lieutenant on one of HM ships. He served as such for 10 months, about two years before he was commissioned. I wonder whether Charles could have occupied an acting role as lieutenant at the time of his demise. Thank you for the trouble you took over this comedy of errors.

Graham