Subjects

Adjutant Wm. Siborne & the Waterloo conspiracy
Duke of York's Royal Military School
East Africa and donga busting
London cabby's forebear
Play up Dukies song
Royal Hibernian Military School
RMA students
The Calthorpe car
Waifs & strays in Leeds

15 September 2006

May I take this opportunity of thanking you for your kind comments in your web biography of Capt. Siborne? It might interest you to learn more about David Hamilton-Williams and hope the attachments help. When next in the BL, I will look up your book on the RMA. I wish I had come across it before writing the Siborne book. Are there any references to Siborne in the RMA records you saw?

Peter Hofschröer

15 September 2006

Peter,

Having read the attachments you sent with your e-mail there is no doubt in my mind that David Hamilton-Williams's Waterloo: New Perspectives is seriously flawed. I have not read the book, so I do not have your knowledge of its detail. However, going by my own knowledge of the Siborne dispute with Wellington and the indisputable references provided in your rebuttal, as well as the Derek Mill review, there is no doubt in my mind that the Waterloo: New Perspectives book is a serious disservice to the cause of military history.

Quite apart from your irrefutable exposure of the author of the book, the most telling evidence of deception is the rather careful, almost restrained, statement made in the Journal of the SAHR, viz, ‘It should also be noted that the 200 letters published in 1891 by General H T Siborne are in the main extracts. There remains a great wealth of material in the originals that has been excluded. Whether this was omitted to conform with the original history or not is pure conjecture.’

I am of this opinion because the SAHR is a journal to which I and my colleague contribute regularly [the lead article in the Winter issue of the JSAHR is over our by-line and deals with another aspect of the Royal Military Asylum of which Siborne was a one-time adjutant]. I concur with your judgement regarding the unquestionable reputation of the Journal for accurate reporting. Its members are uncompromising in criticizing faulty research [and I have to admit that I was taken to task in a review for deficiencies in The Charity of Mars book, which is a risk of any published work].

With regard to Siborne, I recently wrote to the History News Net in response to another work on Wellington by one Jack Malvern, which I'd recommend it to your reading. I wrote:

Wellington at Waterloo (#95828) by Art Cockerill on August 18, 2006 at 7:41 PM. Jack Malvern's exposure of Wellington's cover-up of the Battle of Waterloo published in the London Times (20 March 2004) is an interesting one. However, one might point out that Captain Siborne's dispute with Wellington and the retribution that fell as a result on his luckless head has been well reported. Siborne, Adjutant of the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea, was not without his supporters (else he would not have been appointed to the post) is reported in The Charity of Mars: A history of the Royal Military Asylum (1801-1892) pub. Black Cat Press (2002). Junior officers who expose the weaknesses of their superior officers always get sat upon. A fuller report of the shoddy treatment of Captain Siborne is to be found at URL http://www.achart.ca/york/siborne.html
 
In conclusion, I am persuaded that you and Derek Mills (in his review of the HW book) hit the nail on the head. I don't see how or in what way anyone can challenge your arguments.

Art C

[We acknowledge the generosity of author Peter Hofschröer, who will provide additional material dealing with the treatment Adjutant Siborne received at the hands of senior officers and supporters of Wellington; those who conspired to silence him. A more complete exposition of the case has resulted from this contact. For those interested in the massive undermining and dismissal of Blücher's contribution to the allied victory at Waterloo, material will shortly be posted on this website.]  

28 September 2006

I have been following your info on Dukie website and am interested in the old records now in the NAM. I cannot find the link to them or are they not available to us. As an ex-Dukie I am interested in researching my early days at Saunton Sands 1942. Regards and thanks for all the work put in to put the School history on the web.

28 September 2006

Do I know you? Were you at Cheltenham? Dover? When did you join? I'm curious. I've brought Peter Goble into this because he's more familiar with the records. What are you looking for that will send you scooting off to the NAM (which is, I take it, the National Army). The NAM has some records, but they are minor as compared with those held at Kew. At one time the National Archives were known as the Public Record Office. If you check the records listed at URL http://www.achart.ca/york/publicrecords.html you'll find the documents that came from the school. There are others, but mostly directives from the MOD, the Privy Council and other government offices and ministries concerned with the affairs of the school in their particular areas of responsibility. The records on the URL given would be a good start. What in particular are you looking for? Your own records? Your Petition for a Soldier's Son, family particulars? If so, you might write to the Bursar, Lt. Col. R. Say. If you're looking for info about school staff, the education system, food, training – that sort of thing – you're not likely to get that easily.

16 September 2006

Dear Allan, I think your name is Allan but I'm not sure, it has been some time since the Kenyatta Airport conveyor installation, about 30 years! Stranger things than fiction happen in real life, really. The daughter of an old Kenyan friend of mine, (who is about 20 years old so was not around at the time) and who was brought up in UK, somehow wandered into your site on the net and found the article "Donga Busting" on the 1976 Safari Rally in its non-abridged form! Knowing David Green, her father having been on our service crew for some years and having visited Coomete Farm, she mailed him a copy in Kenya and he forwarded it to me in South Africa! I find that quite amazing. David is still a Kenyan tea farmer plus dairy herd and vegetables, although his son Rory has mostly taken it over. I'm still in engineering and way past retirement, though they do provide me with a Mercedes now and not a Nissan! The tall lithe grey haired one,

Terry Pilfold, Centurion SA

16 September 2006

It is a small world. I remember you well; David, too. You're right, that safari rally report was published a good thirty years ago. I wrote a few pieces from my time working on the Kenyatta Airport equipment. One, describing an incident on the Limuru Road, is posted on the achart website. Much has happened since we met. Conveying equipment was not my field, which has been mainly in power generation. No surprise then that I returned to power engineering, taking a partnership in a firm of engineering consultants to the nuclear industry. I was ten years on the national technical committee for nuclear QA before turning to writing full time. Some of my works are posted on the website. Writing the history of boy soldiers with a colleague is a major occupation these days. What about yourself? I gather you're still in engineering. Where is Centurian, CA? If I were not so idle I could find out on the internet. You will remember Harry, my brother, I'm sure. He had an engineering partnership in Nairobi; died of a melanoma a few years ago. Nice fellow, hard worker, gentle man with a grand sense of humour. It was through Harry of course that we were introduced. Another brother, whom I don't recall entering the picture in East Africa during our acquaintanceship, now lives in Kampala. He's still working as far as I know, maintains the pumps at Kampala Airport. Next time you're in contact with David convey my regards and tell him that article on Donga Busting, published in Road Test, netted $500, which was considerably better than the rates return paid by the Guardian Weekly. It's Art btw; you're excused for that slip of memory.

Art

16 September 2006

Whilst perusing info. re my Gt.Grandfather & Gt/gtuncle on the page there is an entry for GAGE HENRY  Appr. to Jas. Campbell. You have the wrong address I believe. If you check the England & Wales Census for 1871 you will find an entry for James Campbell  Boot Maker 85 Great Suffolk Street, Southward. This is part of London, believe me. I am a London cab driver.

16 September 2006

Hail Cabby, Thanks for the correction. I strive for perfection. Unfortunately some penmen use styles difficult to read. This is a prime example (attached a copy of the address). My translation of the Street as Southampton is a fair assumption, but with a strong hint from you I can accept that it is Suffolk St. The second 'O' in boot can be an A, making it Boat. It has now been corrected, thanks. We strive for an error-free database. A persistent researcher always checks the source before accepting a discovered fact. I appreciate you letting me know. Errors creep in, but not as badly as poor Uriah in the 1881 census transcribed as Urinal.

Peter Goble

11 September 2006

A query on the words to the school song that one or both of you may be able to answer. On the original song sheet music of 1914 the words in the first verse read:

1 "We're drilled and dressed and disciplined,"
2 "and taught to play the game"
3 "Play up Dukies, Play up Dukies"
4 "We'll take you on at anything"
5 "and beat you at the same"
6 "Play up dukies, Play up Dukies" etc

On the song sheet you sent to Ray Pearson

line 2 is "We're proud of our great name..." 5 "...and always play the game" and lines 3 & 5 "As Dukies, Play up Dukies"

If my memory serves me correctly it is the latter that we used to sing. The reason that this has come to light is that I am trying to arrange something special for the reunion which involves the school song and I noticed the difference and wondered why

Ted

11 September 2006

My explanation of the difference between the original 1914 'Play Up Dukies' song and the version I sent to Ray Pearson is speculative – though based on dealing with lyrics and music. It is simply that either the lyricist of the original or, more likely, the school authorities who would have 'held dominion' over what it considered suitable for the boys of the day to sing decreed a change to the words now used as being more appropriate. "We're proud of our great name" is more in keeping with - how might I express it? - the culture, ethos, mores the school sought to instill into its charges. Lyrics are often changed after they've had a first public airing. [Lyrics and music I've written for stage productions are changed from one shore to another: That's the Style, staged in Montreal (1957) was one; The Yukon Trail, Quebec North Shore 1959 was another. It happens all the time.] I suspect that in the Play Up Dukies song the words might have been discussed a board of governors meetings. In that case, the subject would be recorded in the minutes. The only way to make sure would be to go through the minutes from 1914 when the song was first published. I'm sure the original song would have been minuted and, again quite probably, any subsequent changes to the words. To prove this speculation one way or the other would require a careful reading of the minutes. This happened in the case of the 'Sons of the Brave' painting by Philip A. Morris, ARA. Major-General A. J. Meier, chairman of the present board, had the bursar check the files to determine the provenance of the painting. A check proved the painting was loaned to the school in 1927 by the Leeds City Art Gallery. That effectively put to rest a suggestion from a couple of quarters that 'possession was nine points of the law' - not the most ethical response for an institution that professes to teach Christian values.
Someone with influence might do the same to provide you with a definitive answer to your question. Regrettably, that influence is not ours. What I've suggested a reasonable one.

Art

28 September 2006

Sorry to trouble you but I am looking for guidance on how to find out about family history regarding William George Parkes B.18 June 1911 Dublin. (Parents William Edward Parkes & Florence Hollinshead.) He came across with the RHMS from Dublin, to Kent and stayed there until he joined up. He went to the Military School after his father William Edward Parkes died in 1915, after being gassed in France and brought back over to a hospital in Yorkshire and is buried in Yorkshire.. His father was a Private GS/11948 in the 2nd Dragoons, Royal Scots Greys. Can you give me any pointers as to where to start searching for information? or where any records are held? And any background history. He never really talked much about things and his family haven't really got much information as to what happened apart from that followed in his fathers footsteps and was part of B Squadron of the Royal Scots Greys in 1930, Royal Ulster Rifles and Royal Warwickshire Yeomanry Calvary Unit and helped train at Bovington Camp in preparation for D-Day. But all just word of mouth.

Makaela Parkes

28 September 2006

Dominic, your query intrigues me. I have no record of your father, PARKES William George b June 1911 at the RHMS, Dublin to 1922 & Dover 1924 +. The ledger available WO143 79 covers admissions to the RHMS to 1903. The follow-on ledger was destroyed in an air raid in 1942. Boys were normally discharged on or after their 14th birthday, he would have been due on the 18 June 1925, therefore he should have been included in the Last Roll Call list. Not so. I have access to one other source, the WO143 26,a discharge ledger covering 1903 to 1958, this does include DYRMS boys from 1922 to 1958. G W PARKS, PARKES or PARKERS is not entered. ! have yet to transcribe this ledger, it is possible that his name has been entered in error within the alphabetic index. I have noted your request, and should I discover any further details I will contact you. There are no entries for PARKES admissions to the Duke o of York's School Dover c1915 The image is of a RHMS parade at the DORMS Dover. Taken after the last roll call in 1924. This will give you an indication of the type of uniform worn by the boys & should you have any photographs of your father at the DYRMS or Dublin you can make a comparison. Please confirm if you can confirm his attendance & I will do my utmost to discover what has caused the paucity of data re your father. With regards to your father's records, it is possible to obtain a copy of his records. As you have his army number & Regiments, a scan of the muster rolls at Kew is essential.

Go to the National Archives Web site: Log onto Military History: and follow the trail to the Muster Rolls, the Medal Rolls and the correct way to apply for your father's records. The other two in the loop, Cockerill & Marley form the other 2/3rds of our research group.

Peter Goble

14 September 2006

My name is Anthony Peter ANDERSON. My Gt.Grandfather was Hugh John ANDERSON who was at Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea. His older brother Archibald was also there. Both were born in Ireland, but we do have any information prior to this. We do not have mothers name etc. Could you please help. Hugh John was born 16th August 1848, his brother about two years before. We do have a photograph of Hugh John when he was about 40. If you could help and if there is a charge for this help I would be pleased to hear from you.

Anthony Peter

14 September 2006

Anthony, I think that you already have all the detail held relating to your Gr Grandfather; it is attached as a PDF file. Some early records are still available, not all enquiries are successful. Write to the Bursar. Lt Col R Say. The Duke of York's School. Dover. Kent. CT15 6EQ Note all the detail, Names, date of admission, Father's Regiment, dates of discharge, and most importantly, your relationship to the two ANDERSON boys. Should you be successful, and the records have survived, please let me know.

Peter Goble

30 September 2006

My name is Richard Lang from Australia. My 3 x great grandmother and her brother were admitted to the Asylum in 1832 & 1836. Their father was also admitted in 1803 as well as his brother in 1804. What I'm looking for is places of birth as this information is not listed on your web site or anything else that the Asylum may have. Listed below are the names and reference numbers as per your web site, that I'm looking for.

Ref: F24  PRIGG  CATHERINE MKC  admit: 12/2/1832
Ref: M18  PRIGG WILLIAM JAMES  admit: 5/11/1836
Ref: M17 PRIGG  JOHN  admit: 30/8/1803
Ref: M17  PRIGG  THOMAS  admit: 8/2/1804

As stated, I'm looking for any more information on the above persons that isn't listed on your web site. Thank you.

Richard Lang

30 September 2006

Richard, Yours is the earliest request yet. The two admitted 1803 will have been among the first entrants to the RMA. Thomas, No 25, arrived at the asylum on day two. His son William is shown as having died at Herne Bay where there was a cottage hospital to which children of the RMA were sent for sea bathing and fresh sea air. One of the ailments children suffered at that time was the itch and bathing in the sea was thought to be the cure.

The available ledgers at the National Archives, Kew for this period have been transcribed, and all detail I have placed on the www.rma-searcher.co.uk site. The problem with regard to the records is that they had three sources: The Isle of Wight, Southampton and Chelsea. Records will have been transferred between these places as children were moved from one spot to another and records might have been lost in the process. It is, however, believed that the Duke of York's School, Dover, has records of all children who have passed through its gates. We know from others that these go back to 1868. Before that that year we have yet to discover if records are still extant. Write to the Bursar, Lt Col R Say, The Duke of York's School, Dover, Kent, CT15 6EQ and provide the following information, which is necessary in view of the Data Protection Act. State:

The names of Students and, if known, the name of father and mother; father's regiment, date of admission, and your relationship to all four children. Success is not guaranteed. The records you're seeking were begun 203 years and 1 month ago yesterday, so it requires a dash of serendipity to retrieve the information you are seeking. The muster rolls of all units are now held at the National Archives, Kew. You'll need to check the rolls of the Newfoundland Veteran Company. They might contain a record of children born to the Regiment plus other details such as the name, rank and other detail of the father of Catherine. As she was discharged from the Asylum in July 1841, the Census record will be as at the RMA. She was sent to her Grandfather a W. Smith of Glen Lovat. A check of the 1851 census for that place could also prove fruitful. The only Glen Lovat I have been able to find is in Nova Scotia, Canada. I will be most interested to hear of the success of your enquiry to the Bursar.

Peter Goble

14 September 2006

Miss Colthup, I am transcribing the admission ledgers of the RMA from 1803 to 1926. Two CALTHORPES were admitted. Details in the ledger are attached as a PDF file. I would be interested in any further information that you hold re these two boys. My main interest is in the CALTHORPE Car, my father had one and I have several photos. I am hoping that these two boys may well have been involved in the 1920-30 era in creating this classic motor car.

Peter Goble

6 September 2006

Researchers, Guidance and help for a fellow researcher please. A Frederick D PERRIN, born Westminster Middlesex Oct 1879 & the son of Henry (Lancashire Fusiliers) & Sara, was 
admitted to the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea 14/ May 1889 aged 10y 7m. On discharge 19 November 1892, he was sent to the Service Home for Waifs & Strays, Leeds. A hint or pointer as to where I can discover information about this home, or any details of Frederick Perin would be appreciated

Peter Goble