Duke of York's
Frank Lester VC
Major Kenneth H. Cousland, WWI Memoir
Royal Military Asylum
Sir Arthur Clive Morrison-Bell
SS Pemberton

Mr Cockerill, I recently obtained my grandfather's attestation papers from the National Archives in Kew and discovered that he was educated at the Duke of York's Royal Military School in Chelsea between the years 1892 and 1896. I then found your website after doing a Google search. I read the section on George William Hanna and wondered if you could tell me where I would be able to obtain a copy of the documents you have displayed in this section (Petition for a Soldier's Son) with regard to my grandfather. Would I be able to find them at Kew? Or would I have to contact the school? I would be very grateful for any help you could give me

Sheila Kavanagh Handley

7 August 2007

Sheila, I have checked the ledger pages held. Unfortunately your KAVANAGHS do not appear. Confusion occurs with researchers when checking their relatives Attestation Papers. On one of the sheets, the words Educated at the Duke of Yorks, RHMS etc. is a statistical catch all. There must be a "Yes" or a "Tick" followed by the attestation officers signature. No marks, not admitted. I have also checked the RHMS, none of the KAVANAGH'S match the Christian names you forwarded. I have attached an image of the relevant part of the attestation papers, this is unsigned too. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.

All is not lost, check the 1891 census, it is possible that they will be shown at their parents address.

Peter Goble

15 August 2007

I came across your website when trying to find Chelsea military school. Have you heard of it? I am tracing the war career of Frank Lester VC who died in the great war when winning his VC. His biography relates that he enlisted in the South Lancashire Regiment 1916 he was appointed an instructor "at (the) Chelsea Military School, and was awarded highest honours and certificates, qualifying him for the rank of sergeant-major". Have you any details about this school.

Jim Murphy

15 August 2007

Jim, Yes, I've heard of it and you can read its history on the www.achart.ca website. It was known as the Royal Military Asylum until 1893 when its name was changed to the Duke of York's Royal Military School. I very much doubt if my colleague, Peter Goble, who has the registers of the institution would have any information on Frank Lester VC. He might have. I'll send him a copy of this response. Peter's Father was in the South Lancashire Regiment, so he might be able to give you a couple of leads even if he doesn't make a connection with Frank. Lester.

Art Cockerill

16 August 2007

Art, That was in Dover, wasn't it? Were there barracks there, etc.? Why would Frank Lester have been posted there? He was just an ordinary bloke, enlisting in 1916. He was 6'5" tall, though, and got on well with men and officers alike. I take it he showed an aptitude to be an instructor when he first enlisted and was then sent to the school to further develop his abilities. It says in a piece I have that he was awarded 'the highest honours and certificates qualifying him for the rank of sergeant-major'. could the school have been used as a short cut to (higher) rank?

Jim

16 August 2007

Seamus, I have a note re Frank LESTER VC and his brief connection with the South Lancashire Regt. He transferred to the 10 Bn Lancashire Fusiliers in Dec of 1917 . Earning his VC in 1918. There are two possible answers, both unfortunately in the negative. The original location at Chelsea was renamed "The Duke of Yorks Barracks in 1909" when the school moved to Dover. It is possible that he became an instructor there. The school was evacuated from the Dover location during WW!. It is possible that he was an instructor at Dover training recruits etc. If he was with the school at their new location, it is doubtful that a man of 18 years would be used in the training of school boys, unless he was under training as a Schoolmaster - Monitor etc. There is a series of two ledger sets at the PRO in the WO143 series covering 1. The Commandant's letter books for the years in question, and 2. the Commissioners Minutes, again for the period to 1918. There are cases of letters and entries referring to the arrival & departure of members of staff. I cannot guarantee that there will be an entry. I'm sorry that I can't be more specific, but my field is the Admission of soldiers children to the RMA & RHMS.

Peter Goble

Mr Cockerill, I am Kenneth Cousland's son. My sister Sheila Schaap has forwarded a copy of Michael Swift's email to her and her husband of July 16/07, a copy of which was sent to you, respecting your e-mail to Michael of May 24/07. Before the family can consider your request to publish the book on your website, we would like to know details of your proposal. Would you publish the entire book? An edited or abridged copy? Extracts only? Do you receive any financial benefits from your website? Unfortunately we do not have glossy prints of the pictures which appear in the book. I shall look forward to hearing from you.

Dick Cousland

19 August 2007

Mr Cousland, Thank you for writing re the Kenneth Cousland memoir. I understand your caution regarding its posting on our web site, run jointly with a colleague. We deal  principally with military history. The site includes Canadian correspondence from the First World War and selected serialized works with military themes. The current work posted is The Reminiscences of a Queen's Army Schoolmistress, which has three chapters to run for completion. This will take three months. With regret, I cannot confirm whether the entire work or an abridged version would be posted, but probably the full memoir. That would be a editorial decision on which I'm not prepared to speculate at this time; I have a colleague to consult. In any case, the work required to prepare the book for posting on the web would be considerable. Should you give permission to publish on the web medium it would be unlikely to appear for at least two years. I have no further details to give on my offer to publish. The www.achart.ca  site is a non-profit endeavour. It carries no advertising. Contributions for its maintenance are received with thanks.

A. W. Cockerill

20 August 2007

Thanks for the information. I'll discuss the matter with my sisters and be back to you in due course.

20 August 2007

Ditto! This offer is withdrawn

Peter,  Well, I've added another nice medal to my collection. What I know about the man is below. One question you might be able to answer for me is his RMA number? I'm waiting for the man's National Archives papers to arrive, and then I'll likely know more on his service.
  
Irv Mortenson

7 August 2007

Irv, Good to hear from you, especially with a new ref to an old boy of the RMA. Attached the data extracted from WO143/18 Male admissions 1826-1880. I have a copy of the ledger page if you would like a copy, let me know. His father was deceased at the time of his admission. I have now completed, except for a bum page of 44 names, (couldn't read the image I took, but will catch it later) all available ledgers of admissions & discharges to the RMA to 1907 and the RHMS from 1836 to 1932. Give me another week to recover,  & I will extract the 60th for your data base. I will follow the previous format Boys Sponsored by the 66th. This gives their father & Mothers names Boys Volunteered to the 60th Boys volunteering that were sponsored by Regiments other than the 60th. That should keep you busy for a week or two. Due to a spam invasion and a change of ISP, my email is now (as given). My old address will remain live as long as I am able to catch all.

Peter

18 August 2007

Peter, I received a letter [from the Bursar of the DYRMS] confirming that their computer records show that my Grandfather Richard Bryan Kavanagh entered the school on 29 Jan 1892 and left on 19 Dec 1896, enlisting in his father's and grandfather's regiment, the Somerset Light Infantry.  He also enclosed a copy of the original petition application document together with a copy of my grandfather's conduct record; which made for fascinating reading! (e.g. "being over the South side and throwing bread in the closets - Punishment 4 switches and 3 Hours drill" - seems a little harsh by today's standards!)  He seems to have had a string of offences on his record but at his discharge his conduct was listed as "Very Good"!

Sheila Kavanagh Handley

19 August 2007

Sheila, A nice surprise from you, I didn't anticipate your good news until after the summer holidays. I note his 'Criminal Record? I am quite interested in the punishment side of the RMA. I have discovered three ledgers covering the actions and punishments meted out to those poor boys. Unfortunately, they only cover 1852-1857. Judging by the reports of Enos SETH attached your relative was quite saintly. The punishments awarded were completed after their normal day, in reality depriving them of what little freedom they had. Drill. Marching up & down etc B Hole from hours to days, placed in a 'Black Hole'. I do know that there was a window in the room?, because one boy in there piddled out of the window, receiving extra drills for the experience. CSJ, or cross step jumping, no description has been found, but Art & I consider that this is a jumping exercise from feet together  jump apart then close at the same time hold the arms out at shoulder level and then together above the head. I should imaging quite exhausting.
Pay. The boys were paid a penny per week for each good conduct badge, there was also extra for stripes and trade pay, so no loot for the time punished. Lastly Strokes, Stripes, no explanation necessary. Thanks for keeping us in the loop. The only instructions I have for you, is keep pressing on, It is amazing what is hidden away, and I am just pleased that I have been able to offer the results of our research re the RMA.

Peter

20 August 2007

Peter, If you are interested in having a copy of the documents which Lt Col Say sent to me for your research, I will happily send you one.  Please let me know.

Sheila

20 August 2007

Sheila, You are most kind, but I have such detail that I require. All I like to add, is that the records have been obtained from the DYRMS . Believe it or not, a far distant boy of 1806 has been found and the relatives received the same sort of detail that you have. We are both pleased at being able to help.

Peter

Mr. cockerill, in doing some casual research on the internet recently, I was pleased to stumble on your compilation of world war I letters. This is fascinating. I am writing in particular about the Morrison-Bell Prisoner of War letters, which I gather are somehow in the Mavor collection. I would like to give you more information and a significant correction. I will await confirmation that this email reaches you before I write more. My husband is a Morrison-Bell.

Chris citron

6 August 2007

Christine, It is a pleasure to hear from anyone who finds an interest in material published on this website, which I might point out is a joint effort with my colleague, Peter Goble. who lives in the U.K. I should be interested in any information you have to offer, corrective or otherwise. However, the particular correspondence over Morrison-Bell's by-line comes from the Mavor collection a copy of which is held in the U of Toronto library. The collection is owned by the Armour family. I began transcribing the letters for posting on the net and, for the record, can assure you that the copy posted is an accurate transcription of the original correspondence in the Mavor collection. Nevertheless, I am deeply interested in any information you have to offer. You are probably aware the owners of the collection do not have copyright ownership of material in the folios that are not written by members of the Mavor family. In the case of the Morrison-Bell letter or letters, copyright belongs to the nearest surviving relative. Anything you offer may appear in the correspondence section of the achart site, subject to editing of course. Please let me hear from you. We are most interested.

Art Cockerill

8 August 2007

Mr. Cockerill, how nice to hear back from you right away. the internet is quite amazing. My husband is David Anson Clive Moore, and the grandson of Sir Arthur Clive Morrison-Bell. Dave's mother the late Shelagh Morrison-Bell was Clive's daughter (Shelagh was British, but worked at the British Embassy during WWII in Washington, and met William Moore and married him, Dave's father. Shelagh wrote a book called Resident Alien about the wartime experiences...if that library doesn't have a copy, we'll donate one.) Clive Morrison-Bell was a Member of Parliament for 22 years, and a Personal Private Secretary to Churchill, an author (Tariff Walls) and a prominent mountaineer. He was one of five children: Eustace, Claude and Ernest, his twin, and two sisters. Ernest was also in Parliament, though not for so long. Clive was taken prisoner of war by the Germans for almost the entire WWI. there are fascinating stories about that. Clive did quite a lot of writing. We have his (unpublished) memoir manuscript, which includes a fifty page passage about the prisoner of war experience ( he also wrote about one part in the Alpine Journal, that's a whole story in itself).

If you haven't yet guessed, the correction has to do with the authorship of the letters. The web site attributes them to Ernest Morrison-Bell. However, the letters were written by Clive (twin brother of Ernest). The experiences are Clive's as a German prisoner of war, writing to his wife whose initials are correctly listed as LMB -- that is, Lilah Morrison-Bell. There are references to their daughter Shelagh. Interestingly, as I have begun to look them over, side by side with the memoir, the descriptions use much the same wording that he used in his later Memoir.

Shelagh donated many of her father's papers in Canada because of his years of service there: 1898-99, ADC to Major-General Hutton in Canada and in charge of  a Canadian contingent in South Africa, ADC to Governor-General of Canada, Earl of Minto from 1900-1904 (source, The  Times, April 17, 1956 obituary for Clive, page 13 (London). I have a vague idea there may be some plaque to Clive somewhere there....

Chris

Just to let you know I'll shortly be uploading the list of Irish famine orphans on the Pemberton to Port Phillip in 1849 on our website www.irishfaminememorial.org I've included a link to your Royal Hibernian Military School-S.S. Pemberton page - trust you won't mind, and hope you may do the same for us. I've noticed a few anomalies between our page and the girl's names on ours. You may notice too that from research I did some years ago, some of the young women named as belonging to the Royal Hib. M School, seemed to have spent some time in South Dublin workhouse. But more on this another time perhaps.

Trevor McClaughlin
Australia

30 August 2007

Trevor, No, not at all, to answer your question. I shall happily include a cross link to your site at the URL www.irishfaminememorial.org What brief description if any would you like me to add. The URL of the SS Pemberton article is, of course, www.achart.ca/hibernian/pemberton.html I am interested in anything you can tell me about the Hibs women who you associate with the South Dublin Workhouse. Which one? Can you identify it? We know that girls were farmed out at the age of 14, the same as the boys. However, some of those listed on the SS Pemberton manifest were older. As I recall, some were designated as 'governesses'. It is quite possible that girls leaving the Phoenix Park Hibernian School were actually found positions about Dublin as described, but included on the Pemberton list because they were ex-Hib children. Unfortunately, the admission registers for that period are not available. I believe they were among documents destroyed during the London Blitz of 1940. In any case, my colleague, Peter Goble, and I will be most interested in any information you can provide about any one of the Hib children on the Pemberton list.

Art